The Wounds Of The Faithful

Diana discusses the arrest of Kenny Baldwin, pastor of Crossroads Baptist Church in Bailey’s Crossroads, Virginia, for grooming a boy for over a year and sending explicit photos. Drawing on her personal history with the Baldwin family, she rejects claims this was a simple “fall".  She also shares that Kenny’s brother Michael Baldwin is serving time for running a Ponzi scheme tied to his Miracle Mansion project. Diana reflects on repentance, prays for victims and families, and urges vigilance and reporting.
00:00 Podcast Disclaimer Intro00:33 Why This Story Matters02:06 My History With Baldwins07:11 Kenny Baldwin Allegations09:43 No Excuses For Grooming12:14 Church Response And Justice13:46 Michael Baldwin Ponzi Case17:21 Repentance And Accountability18:54 Closing Thoughts And Call To Action20:36 Outro And Subscribe
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 Diana returns to the Wounds of the Faithful podcast after a break to share a positive update: a vacation to Colorado Springs at the Glen Eyrie Conference Center for a Bible conference with Wayne Stiles teaching on the apostle Peter and Fernando Ortega as the musical guest. The trip overlapped with her school finals, requiring her to take a stressful two-and-a-half-hour systematic theology essay exam during the vacation, Despite altitude fatigue, the conference was intimate and enjoyable, including rich delicious food, a worship concert, and a hymn sing.
00:00 Podcast Welcome00:33 Back After A Break01:12 Vacation To Colorado Springs02:02 Finals Stress On The Road02:49 Systematic Theology Exam06:03 Smooth Trip And Altitude07:00 Wayne Stiles And Bible App10:45 Conference Friends And Ministry11:04 Fernando Ortega Stories13:51 Hymn Sing Highlights15:31 Food Temptations 17:35 Heading Home To The Heat18:50 Final Grade19:30 Wrap Up And Subscribe  
 
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Seminary Update and Book Reviews: Women in Leadership, Political Exile, and Healing or Harm from Misused Scripture
Diana shares an update on her seminary studies toward a Master of Divinity to become a hospital chaplain. She explains why she has not republished older episodes and then recommends three books: Preston Sprinkle’s From Genesis to Junia, which she is midway through and says is readable yet scholarly on what the Bible says about women in leadership, highlighting many biblical women and themes of servant leadership; Sprinkle’s Exiles, on Christians’ identity as foreigners whose allegiance is to King Jesus rather than partisan politics; and Dr. Steven Tracy’s To Heal Or Harm, focused on how misused scripture can wound abuse survivors and how to apply the Bible redemptively. 
00:00 Podcast Welcome00:33 Life Update and School06:09 Colorado Conference Plug07:12 Making Time to Read08:26 Book Review Genesis to Junia12:18 Women Leaders in Scripture22:49 Book Review Exiles28:04 Book Review To Heal Or Harm34:22 Mending the Soul Mission36:43 Wrap Up and Resources38:57 Closing and Subscribe

Diana shares a solo episode about unexpectedly meeting her abusive ex-husband at her work after 17 years of no contact. She walks through the encounter describing intense triggering and how she chose to speak with him compassionately. She learns of his debilitating health conditions, being cared for by a girlfriend, as he remains in an IFB church. Diana processes the shock with her circle of support, reflecting on forgiveness, boundaries, and feelings about “justice” without seeking revenge. She encourages listeners to prioritize safety, use legal resources when needed, and seek licensed trauma therapy. She recommends Mending the Soul groups as an additional tool for healing and coping with triggers.
 
00:00 Trigger Warning Intro
02:16 Backstory And Healing
03:40 Hearing His Name
06:48 Facing Him At Work
10:03 Health Decline Explained
14:03 Faith And Awkward Goodbye
16:14 Aftershock And Reflections
17:02 Googling And Second Marriage
20:31 Father In Law Discovery
24:05 Snark Fades Away
24:52 Aftermath support at Work
26:02 Therapy Barriers
27:42 Calling Jodeen
29:03 Alternate Reality Thoughts
30:44 Telling Brian at Home
34:50 Boundaries and Closure
36:42 Advice for Survivors
40:17 Violence and Safety
44:01 Healing Resources and Wrap
 
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In this new episode, host Diana welcomes back guest Jake Doberenz, who shares updates on his life since his last appearance in Season 2. They discuss Jake's new podcast 'Christianity Without Compromise,' his new Substack, and his middle-grade book series 'Super Jake.' The conversation delves into Jake's personal challenges, including a difficult divorce and the loss of his father, and how his faith journey and mental health were affected. They also cover topics such as Christian nationalism, tribalism, and the importance of returning to a Jesus-centered Christianity. Jake emphasizes the value of listening and learning from diverse perspectives as a path to spiritual and personal growth.
00:00 Introduction and Sponsor Message00:47 Welcome to the Podcast01:28 Introducing Jake Dorin01:50 Jake's New Ventures02:51 Technical Difficulties and Housekeeping03:33 Jake's Return to the Show04:13 Jake's Journey and Challenges13:45 Support Systems and Church Reactions20:16 Jake's Writing Journey26:21 Introduction to the Podcast's Mission26:41 Focusing on Jesus-Centered Christianity27:50 Challenges and Pushback28:45 The Call to Smash Idols29:38 Diverse Conversations and Controversial Topics31:34 Personal Growth and Education39:01 Christian Nationalism and Its Dangers45:04 Reflecting on History and Moving Forward48:07 Final Thoughts and Advice50:36 Conclusion and Farewell
 
Jakedoberenz.com for all things Jake!
I am a writer, speaker, minister, coach, and creative thinker living in Oklahoma City, OK. I have earned my Master of Theological Studies at Oklahoma Christian University, the same place I earned my Bachelor’s degree in Bible with a minor in Communication Studies.
I write fiction and nonfiction in a variety of mediums, including poetry, short stories, books, stage plays, academic essays, and devotionals. I also venture out into other mediums, like podcasts and video. My favorite topics of choice to discuss and write about (though always changing) include: Christian writing, helping people understand the Bible better, Christian identity, theology of technology and social media, use of humor in faith messages, how to get young people back in church, and a Christian response to culture.
 
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Can’t travel to The Holy Land right now? The next best thing is Walking The Bible Lands! Get a free video sample of the Bible lands here!
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Jake Doberenz
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Welcome to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast, brought to you by DSW Ministries. Your host is singer songwriter, speaker and domestic violence advocate, [00:01:00] Diana. She is passionate about helping survivors in the church heal from domestic violence and abuse and trauma. This podcast is not a substitute for professional counseling or qualified medical help.
Now here is Diana.
Hello everyone. How are you guys today? This is one of our new episodes. We have Jake Dorin back on the show. He was on season two and I did rebroadcast, the first interview that I had with him. So please go back and listen to that. It is fantastic and there's a lot of new things going on with Jake.
He has a new podcast, which is called Christianity Without Compromise. He also has a new substack, [00:02:00] that is fabulous. He is written a book, super Jake and a second book. Super Jake and Cool Kenny. So that's a fictional book.
Got remarried recently and there's a lot of here to talk about
that is very timely for today. I just love his podcast. It is really great. He talks about, current topics that affect the church. And so I'm not gonna do too much intro because, like I said, you can listen to the original podcast interview from, last time.
I've got lots of questions for him. I don't really have a script today. I'm just gonna go with the flow as to, what he wants to talk about. Um, a couple housekeeping things. I had some computer problems, some internet problems, and so I [00:03:00] was this afternoon switching out my computer in my studio with my laptop, so I didn't have to do the podcast on my cell phone.
Um, this camera isn't as wonderful as my other one, and the sound isn't as wonderful, but I'm gonna try and fix the sound part post-production. But this is gonna be a fantastic show, perfect for the new year. So I hope that you will enjoy my second conversation with Jake Doberenz.
Alright, welcome back to the show from season two. Jake, do thanks for coming on the show again. Of course, of course. I'm glad you'll have me all these seasons later. That's, that's really fun. It's cool. Yeah. There's a lot of things that have happened since, you were on the show, so I was glad that you were looking to be a [00:04:00] guest again, and, definitely wanted you to come back and share what you've been up to since then, some exciting things, and then some contemplative things that you've experienced.
So remind the folks , what you're all about. Oh, what I'm all about. I mean, the formats change, but I've always just been trying to communicate Christian truth to people, you know, through podcasts, through books, through plays, like whatever the, the medium changes all the time.
I just think Jesus is pretty cool and I want people to know him better and, um, I want people to know the real Jesus and not, there's a bunch of posers running around. Don't know if you knew that, but I want people to encounter the real thing. So, I mean, that's who, that's what I'm all about.
Since the last time we've talked, I've probably started and also abandoned like a hundred projects, you know, that's just my nature. Fortunately, and [00:05:00] unfortunately, well, I was a big fan of your creatively Christian mm-hmm. Podcast. I was a guest on there with Andrea.
Yeah. And I really enjoyed that being a musician and everything, and a creative myself. I understand that you're not doing that anymore, right? Yeah. That one's not, active anymore. I handed that off to Brandon. Brandon was one of our anchor hosts there on the show. He still posts about the show sometimes, and, uh, he has all the rights and access to the material.
And so episodes still get shared and still get listens to. I think stopped, early, like 23, or 24, man, I don't know. The years have blurred together. But I still get notifications of people wanting to be guests on that show or, you know, some, something like good pods will say, Hey, this is ranked in the top for Christian, you know, arts and stuff.
I'm like, whoa, it's crazy. So it [00:06:00] still gets traction even though we're not actively publishing, which is definitely fun. Wow. And you. Have this new podcast, Christianity Without Compromise, which I am like fan number two. Jake, I just absolutely love this podcast, I know you had it branded as Smashing Idols, which actually liked that title.
Oh. Or did you decide to change it? Well, I decided to change it because it's a cool title, but I would tell that to people and they'd be like, I, what is that? Huh? What's going on here? Um, and so I wanted a fit of a couple keywords in there. I wanted to be very clear. It was about Christianity and Christian stuff.
So a little bit to get found better. I mean, that was a lot of it. Mm-hmm. It get understood a little bit better. Um, but we're still this pretty much the same mission. We're smashing the idols. We're trying to bring the church back to kind of a faithful Christian witness. Right. And that means, hey, there are some idols in the [00:07:00] way.
We're just gonna, move them and sometimes get a hammer out and start smashing 'em. 'cause we gotta get those out of the way to get back to the real deal. I totally agree. Yeah. When you are on here in season two. You went through some really difficult times of your life and I wanted to have you share with our audience, what you've learned in, those tough times and what was your relationship with the Lord and how he helped you through that.
Whatever you're comfortable sharing with us. Yeah, I mean, since then I've had my job more than a year, uh, my job, period of life, right? But before we catch everybody up, I want people to understand, like, I had a relatively more or less comfortable life.
I grew up in the church. My, my parents stayed together. It wasn't perfect, but they stayed together and didn't really have anybody like die or leave in my [00:08:00] world. Like it wasn't bad. And then I grow up and become an adult human person. I graduate college and then it was a little bit downhill from there.
I think we're on the Upward Hill part, but it went downhill from there. So, after college, I got married to somebody who I loved and thought loved me, and things were pretty good. Um, until a time where she just decided, I don't want to invest in this relationship anymore.
I don't wanna do this thing anymore. And there were a variety of reasons for that, that I won't get into. That's something that she decided, but. Did the whole marriage counseling thing. And ultimately it comes to a point in counseling like that where there's a decision. We've spent six weeks or whatever picking apart all the problems.
Now are you gonna change? Are we gonna do something about [00:09:00] it? Are we gonna fix it? And her answer was, I'm good. I don't think so. See you later. Um, and so that was a difficult year. It ended up being about a year from there, so the actual divorce papers were signed. And that was not a fun time in my life.
For sure, obviously for people that have gone through any kind of broken relationships like that. Just not good. I struggled a lot, you know, you mentioned the faith journey kind of thing. Like I believed. God wanted to save my marriage. I did pretty much everything I could as a human being to save that.
I did. I read all the books. I, I literally read maybe 30 marriage books. I, did counseling, you know, individual therapy, virtual therapy I talked to experts in saving marriages and marriages and crisis. I spent a good chunk of money, as kind of this [00:10:00] last ditch effort going to this conference that we both attended virtually that was supposed to kind of help get us talking and heal some things.
None of that worked. And that was really challenging because I said, well, doesn't God want marriages to stay together? Isn't that what God's all about? Like, that would be God's preference, surely. Right? Um. God doesn't override free will, very often. And so that's what happened.
Like people made choices and it was a eye-opening time of, like other people in the world can just make whatever choices they want and sometimes you cannot control them, right? You, you, you can't, you don't have a say. And we have to just deal with that. We have to accept that to some extent. You know, I am proud of the progress that I made and the things I did to better myself.
And so I can sleep easy, so to speak, knowing that like I did my part. But. [00:11:00] There was no happy ending to that necessarily. And then pretty much shortly after that, my dad died unexpectedly. And so again, it was this, this job thing, right? It just like one after another. And, things kind of fell apart.
Uh, and losing a marriage, losing a father, they for better or for worse put, put things in perspective. And so while those weren't, um, good things, like I can't call them objectively good, there was good that came out of that, I became a better. A better person. I'm just full stop. I like to think I'm a better person than I was last time I was on the show here.
I am absolutely healthier spiritually, mentally, and all the ways, like I did the work in myself. It doesn't mean I'm a perfect human being, you know, still a process, but I am at a better [00:12:00] point. And, I'm remarried now. I found somebody who really likes me and she's not going anywhere. And, we put in the work together and doesn't mean things are perfect, but, we both recognize that,
that we are imperfect and we're just gonna do our best each day. And if there's a problem, we're gonna address it and not hide it for, you know, three years kind of thing. Mm-hmm. And, uh, it's good. So that's been the journey, right? Literally the darkest times. I mean there was a brief moment in that darkness that the holiday after my dad died and I had gotten divorced and my dad died in the same year, I felt for the first time, like thoughts of ending it all.
And those were fleeting. I didn't think that very often, but it was just like too much. But I crawled, my way out of the darkness, [00:13:00] and things. Better on the other side. Uh, so that's my story and I'm, uh, I'm sticking to it.
Oh, well thank you for being so transparent.
And it's not easy to say those hard times. And, I think that a lot of people listening can relate to what you just said and have been through divorce and no matter who's ended the relationship, it was mm-hmm. Ending for a reason and they question God's will. Yeah. And whether God's mad at them or the church is not supportive of them.
Yeah, that was one of my questions. How did your church, respond to the divorce? Did you felt like you were cared for, or did you feel judged in any way? Or what was that like? Well, I'm gonna make a generalization [00:14:00] here, that I've noted before. my more conservative Christian Church friends didn't ever want to talk about it.
They weren't gonna bring it up. They we're gonna say anything. I'm like, surely, you know, you've heard through the grapevine, you saw something, you realized who's missing in the picture. Like, you know, but they wouldn't bring it up. Uncomfortable, wouldn't talk about it. Now my more, what I'll call progressive Christian friends.
They were talking about, oh, come on. You know, Jake, it's fine. Like second marriages are better. Who cares about her? Move on, man. Life can be so much great on the other side, which I mean, I get what they were trying to do, but that's not what I want to hear either. And then weirdly, um, some of my atheist friends, like coworkers and things of that nature, they were just like, man, that sucks.
Like, that's tough. That's [00:15:00] terrible. And so I got a lot of my actual support from the atheists. And again, generalizations here. Like there were Christians that were g like, yeah. But um, a lot of people in the church just didn't wanna have that conversation or if they were gonna have that conversation. They wanted to go too much into the, rainbows and sunshine on the other side.
But that's not what I wanted to hear. Mm-hmm. A lot of people thought I was crazy for trying to save my marriage for hoping, for wanting, everybody can make their own different choices there in relationships that are in crisis. In that point. For me, I stuck it out, basically until my dad died, where that was like in a weird way, kind of just a, a way for me to move on and say, I'm gonna focus.
Like when, [00:16:00] when your life can literally just be cut short, I need to move on. I'm going to go. A new direction kind of thing. But yeah, people were strange. People acted, strangely. So I don't think I was judged or condemned. Not to my face. Nothing that I ever heard. The only thing that was judged weirdly was me, sticking it out.
Mm-hmm. Trying to save that marriage. Some people did not like that, including some close friends got mad at me because they're like, well, how dare you? She doesn't want it. How dare you try to pursue, try to make this better? And that's a tough one. I mean, I think it's a little harsh and crazy to be mad at me for wanting to fix it.
Yeah. And again, it comes down to yeah, you need two people. So if the two people aren't on board here. Well that can't be saved. And that's how it ended up happening.
Well, I went through my own divorce, as you know, and Uhhuh I [00:17:00] on my second marriage and they church crucified me. Wow. I mean it was, very negative and very judgmental. And I did try to save the marriage. I dragged him to three different marriage counselors and Yeah, of course. Suffered a lot of abuse for 13 years and he didn't wanna save the marriage when we were together. And, I'm not gonna force somebody. For somebody to change or to repent, you can't, it's like, well you, yeah. And I'm sorry that the church didn't support me and the church decided, they were going to make me either go back to my husband or, I couldn't be part of the church anymore.
It's like, no, not going. Yeah, that's insane. I'm not going back, I'm not going back to an unrepentant, husband. Mm-hmm. I'm glad that you had a good experience. Although a little strange, but you didn't seem to be ostracized or [00:18:00] gossiped about? Not to my face. I mean, yeah.
Not to your face, you know, they can, I guess see what they want, but. Well, I was doing some preaching at some churches and like doing stuff like that and, I was afraid that I was gonna lose those positions. I didn't, and maybe this is a gender thing that comes into play here, but it was like, well, she decided to leave, so you're fine, you're off the hook or something like that.
Some people wanted to know whose fault was it? And I'm like, well, I wasn't perfect here. There was reasons she wanted out, but at the end of the day, she was the one wanting out. So I, and this doesn't make it better or more comfortable, but I feel like there were some people in the church that were like, well, as long as it's her fault, as long as it's something.
But, I don't know. I still struggled with all the. Biblical stuff myself, I gave myself enough guilt. They were quote [00:19:00] bible verses at me, right and left. Ugh. And you know, I couldn't, that's tough. Quote, goodness, couldn't get married again, blah, blah, blah.
Right. You know, all the verses and, a lot of my listeners have gone through that, the same kind of negative, judgmental stuff. But glad you came out on the other side with the, um, would you call it depression when your dad died, when you momentarily wanted to Yeah. End it all.
Yeah. I was briefly on antidepressants. I needed medical intervention to get out of that, as well as other coping skills and things of that nature. So, yeah. And there's no shame in that, which. A lot of people in my mending the soul groups and those that are listening here, they were shamed for going and getting some mental health, help, stating that you only need the Bible and you just need to pray more, and you don't need any of that other stuff to, get over depression.
And that [00:20:00] is really so wrong, you know? Yeah. Yeah. We do need medication sometimes. Maybe not forever, but there is no sin in getting medical help. Amen. Absolutely. Well, we'll probably get onto a lighter topic here. You, uh, wrote. Were they young adult books?
The Super Jake series? They're middle grade. So your 9, 10, 11, 12 year olds. That's who it's for. That's a fun age. I remember being that in that group and I did a lot of reading. Oh, me too. At Wish they had Super Jake and Cool Kenny. Yeah. When I was that age.
Now just to be honest, I haven't read those books, but could you, tell the folks about your book? You're a natural writer. Is that one of your strengths or did you develop that? Fifth grade, I'm writing stories and things like that. I fell in love with the craft of storytelling, of writing.
And so I'm better than I was at writing than I was in fifth [00:21:00] grade. So like, I have improved for sure. Well, when it comes to things I gotta do before I die, like this is, was one of those projects, because I had created this alter ego character, super Jake. Created him in third grade originally and started telling stories in fifth grade.
It was my first creative work, right? The reason, you know, leads to creatively Christian, all the other creative endeavors that I would go to. This was my first like, love of storytelling all came from Super Jake, who was a alter ego version of myself, who was a superhero who could shoot ice cream out of his hands, because of course, that's the power when you're.
You know, a 10-year-old. Shoots ice cream outta his hands. Um, and so over the years, like I, I struggled with how to tell the story or if to tell the story. I had this weird period of life where I was like, everything I have to do is Christian. So I can't tell that story because it's not [00:22:00] quote unquote Christian.
There's no come to Jesus moment at the end, or he's not converting the atheist. And I said, well, you know, what I'm actually doing with these stories. What actually happened was the bad guys are elements of culture, of toxic culture. In the first book, you know, it's the bad guy at the fashion police.
And, he's trying to tell everybody to be cool. You gotta dress this way, that's what you gotta do. And then, super Jake combats that with ice cream, with quips and jokes and words and, you know, and so there is no, come to Jesus moment, but. I am still trying to train specifically young boys, but any young reader who might take a look, I'm trying to train them into a better way of viewing things.
The second one deals with toxic masculinity. Like the bad guy is all about, you know, men gotta lift weights and we gotta be all tough and, disrespect women and stuff like that. And so, I tackled [00:23:00] those cultural items. Oh, I wish I had super Jake when I was in grade school.
'cause Yeah. Um, I wasn't very popular because I didn't wear the designer clothes. I had the no name brands and I got picked on and bullied. And I wish I had super Jake to come to the rescue for me. Exactly. I know we all do. What could cool Kenny do? That was, his brother? Yeah.
Right? The brother. Yeah. My brother, weirdly, coincidentally, happens to be named Kenny as well. Just real crazy coincidence. But, he has the, what's called prehensile hair so his hair can like grow and grab stuff and move around and things like that. So just wild, crazy powers. And, the book series makes fun of that.
Like they're very self-aware that these are kind of weird powers. Maybe not the best crime fighting powers that you could ever think of, but that's the humor of it. And then you gotta be very creative. It's hard for me to be creative enough to be like, [00:24:00] okay, shooting scoops of ice cream in his hands.
How could that actually save the day? So it's a good challenge for me. And you'll have to read the books to find out what happens. You'll have to read the books. Yep. I gotta get to, to finishing that series. I've been slacking, but there's a couple books out already. Yeah. And so you guys can definitely find those on, right?
Amazon? Yeah. All the places Amazon, well, the listeners get good books for kids to read that are clean and have some messages and some fun at the same time. Yeah.
We do have your substack that you, said is not new. I have very few people that I subscribe to on Substack because I love to read, but I have only, you know, that's right. I, not enough hours in the day to read everything. You should see my stack of books on my nightstand.
Yeah. But you have a fantastic substack that I subscribe to and it goes great with your podcast and your [00:25:00] writing. In college, I minored in communication studies.
'cause I was very interested not just in the knowledge, but how do we communicate this, how do I get this across effectively? So I try to use that in my writing and my podcast. You, whatever I'm doing, I'm, I want you to understand the message the best. So I'm very picky about what words I use and when I do line breaks in spaces anyway, that's just stuff I nerd out about.
I like to write, but I'm not that good at it, but I have to really, really work at it.
I'm sure in your MDiv you're gonna be writing some stuff, so I've already been warned about that. You're gonna be writing a lot. Oh, you're gonna write some stuff? Yeah, it'll be great. Yeah. Spell check. I'm a good speller, and good at grammar and stuff. I have it in my head what I wanna say, but it never comes out the way I want it to come out.
I gotcha. Do you have that struggle? Probably not. I do sometimes. That's why I just throw it out there and I rearrange later.
Yeah. Yeah. So I definitely recommend, if you're not on substack, there's some really [00:26:00] great writers on there and people like Jake that, care about Jesus.
So we did, mention your podcast. I really wanna talk about your amazing, amazing guests. You really knock it out of the park like every time.
I think there's only one guest that I didn't agree with . Okay. I just turned it off 'cause I did not agree with what they were saying. But you have some amazing topics and I love that it's, a podcast for Christians weary of shallow faith in culture, war, religion. Oh my goodness. That is so perfectly worded. And bring us back to Jesus centered Christianity. I absolutely love that. Because it is about Jesus. It's not all this other junk around it. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That we call Christianity, it's churchianity. [00:27:00] And just going back to Jesus is what I tell the survivors listening, my people, in my groups, when you're trying to reconstruct, right? Like, well, what do I do? What do I believe? Well, this is what I tell 'em is go back to Jesus. What was Jesus doing?
And you talk about that quite a bit on your show. We're going to get rid of all the fluff and the legalism. You list the prosperity gospel, the purity culture, toxic church leadership, obsession with sin and hell, politics mixed in with the gospel. Mm-hmm. And so we need to get away from those things and come back to
Christ alone. Yeah. Besides our current culture right now, why did you decide to do this podcast? Because, you're really, [00:28:00] right in the middle of the war zone when you come out and say these things. Hmm. Yeah. I guess I'm just a glutton for punishment or something.
Right? Like, just love for people to be mad at me online. It's my favorite thing. Um, I get some pushback. Uh, when I started investing more, putting more stuff on YouTube. Obviously on YouTube you can get comments and then I see some comments of people that are like, oh, this guest is a Marxist, blah, blah, blah.
You know, terrible sinner person. I'm like, did you listen to, what are you talking about, man? Jake, a Marxist? I'm like, whatever. No. Um, so sometimes I'm like reading comprehension. We need to work on that 'cause or listening comprehension. 'cause what are you guys saying? I mean it started as just a general kind of theology project.
I wanted to podcast about fun topics that I cared about and then, the closest I have ever felt to hearing the audible voice of God [00:29:00] was this concept of smashing idols. This idea of be a Gideon, who, who smashes idols in the night, and has his dad defend him. Whole fun little story.
And that was like a calling of God. Like this was like, this is what you're supposed to be doing, Jake. And so I followed that. I listened to that. I started focusing a little bit more on, cleaning up the church. Like you said, we're cluttered, so let's clean this extra stuff up.
Let's get back to the essentials here, the basic stuff. And so yeah, it puts me into a fun spot. Where I get to have all those conversations that you mentioned. Many of those conversations I don't agree with either. We have people on all different sides of the spectrum. Well, not all sides of the spectrum.
There are some sides. We're not gonna touch those sides. But we have a lot of different perspectives and things of that nature. And so I try to select guests that are gonna be more charitable and more, given us something to think about in trying to strip away stuff [00:30:00] to point us to Jesus.
So, listen to some of these titles, religious Certainty and being the only one saved.
Ooh. That was Scott Lloyd. Crotch Christianity misses the Gospel and yes, I did laugh at that. I thought that was a funny episode. Yeah. People hate when I say the word crotch, but you know, it's fine. Oh yes. I got a good giggle. Six in the morning when I'm on my way to work. Um, no king, but Christ rethinking State, Craig Hargus.
Mm-hmm. Why I'm not a creationist anymore. That was very interesting, Jake. I listened to that very intently. The Bible is not an informational book book, which, um, I've learned that the hard way, uh, in my reconstruction. Can the Bible be an idol? Ooh, look, look at you, Jake. You're really stirring the pot now.
Oh yeah. The [00:31:00] dangers of Christian nationalism and tribalism. You had Scott McKnight on Deconstruction. That was mm-hmm. Probably the first podcast I listened to and it was absolutely fantastic. Scott is amazing. Oh, and I agreed with everything that he said. I'm gonna get some of his books, Oh yeah.
Yeah. Comment on some of these topics here. About the Bible's not an informational book. You've got an Miv, right? Uh, MTS Master of Theology. MM okay. So I real, what I really like about you, Jake, is that you are very transparent with, okay. I've made a lot of mistakes as a Christian in that I thought I knew everything.
I thought that, I had all my beliefs set in this little box, and if anybody, challenges my box, then they were, a heretic. And, I'm super [00:32:00] Christian. Let me tell you, I was that person too. Mm-hmm. I was like that when I was in my old. Mm-hmm. I thought, wow, this guy gets it.
And you're like, oh, until I went to seminary and then, uh, some of the professors took me down a peg or two. Oh, yeah. And, showed you some things. Yeah. Tell us about that. Yeah. I mean, you mentioned it, like for me, I went to college thinking I already knew the answers, but I was like, yeah, but I still have to have the degrees
just to get the next job, blah, blah, blah. And really just was opened up to a world that I didn't really know that well, apparently. And just encountering diversity of thought was really important. And at its best, that's what higher education, education of any kind is supposed to do.
Tell you there are some other way. Yeah. Okay. You know, two plus two equals four. But a lot of things in the world, there's like some [00:33:00] different perspectives, different angles here and things of that nature. And so kind of kicking and screaming like, uh, God brought me through education and said, Jake, yo, you don't know everything.
You actually know very little things. And, um, I was humbled through that process Now. Education absolutely can lead many people to be more prideful, to be more puffed up, to be like, oh, I know everything now because I have a degree. I was a lucky case. Or it did the opposite. I still like to think I know a couple things.
You know, the Bible study at church. I'm like, yeah, but have you guys considered the Greek word means? But, you know, occasionally there's still that. But I was privileged that I had professors that were, that, you know, they were Christians, they were teaching Bible and theology and they were gracious to young 20 something Jake, and we're willing to walk through [00:34:00] with him and to take his questions and.
I was introduced, ultimately while I was studying the Bible. Interesting. Like as an information book, like I have my degree in the academic study of the Bible. The professors made sure I was still having encounter with Jesus, and that was the key there. It's as much as I love digging into the deep stuff about scripture, and there's so much depth, there's so many different little things you go into, you know, I like the weird parts.
Give, gimme the Leviticus or whatever. Let's get weird here, you know? But, I didn't lose sight of, the real star of the story, Jesus. Mm-hmm. And, and ultimately it is Jesus. That is the truest revelation of God and not the Bible. The Bible witnesses to Jesus. But the Bible is not the main star. It is Jesus.
Um, and I. Was able to realize that, and that opened up everything [00:35:00] that made me a more charitable person. It made me nicer, right? Mm-hmm. Because I didn't think I knew all the answers. So suddenly fruits of the spirit, I had the spirit because the fruits were coming out in a way they were not before.
Because I had a spirit of hatred and division and rightness. Uh, not a super helpful one. So I was privileged, I was lucky. It still took me a couple years, and I am always, aware of that. I don't think anybody should change their mind overnight, like the creationist one, for instance. Um, mm-hmm. I don't expect anybody to listen to that one episode and have their whole world change maybe.
But I just wanna start a conversation. Because change takes time. I took years and my homework was literally reading the Bible. Like when you're a Bible major, that's your homework. So for other people, if it takes some years, that's okay. I get it. Let's wrestle through this stuff. But as [00:36:00] we wrestle, just like when Jacob wrestled with God, you're gonna probably get a limp.
You're gonna, there's something that's gonna happen here. You're gonna be changed. You're gonna get a new name. You're gonna, in his case, at least in Jacob's case, so I say let's wrestle, but be prepared to be changed here. You're not gonna be the same. Yes, I definitely, when I came out of my first marriage and had a change denominations.
Yeah, I was the same mindset. 'cause I did my undergraduate and I was a missionary for 15 years and, you know, I did know a lot about the Bible, but , as you say, there's a lot that I didn't know and I had to go to another church and then I find out that, okay, this is, a church that my previous denomination said was, liberal or Sure.
They were not real Christians. Their backslidden or whatever because they used a guitar in the [00:37:00] worship service. Or they, have differing beliefs in what Bible they use and mm-hmm. Or the girls wear pants. Oh goodness.
The, but the first time I go into these other churches looking for a new place to serve and heal. God just hit me upside the head with a two by four and just like, look, this person here loves Jesus and serves me. So I had gone through a lot of, oh, there's other legitimate beliefs.
I'm married to somebody that does not believe in the rapture. So that was, very different for me. I always thought all Christians believed in the rapture. Uh, the creationist part, I can't really ignore science. But I think what's important is that we believe, yes, God created the earth. Yes, God created man, whether it was a million years or if it was [00:38:00] 10,000 years.
The important part is that I believe that God is the center of, that. It's all the details in between i'm kind of undecided. I'm still, working through all of that. We're still figuring it out.
So I was glad that you brought those topics up in your podcast. You gotta be open to, okay, God, you're gonna show me what the truth is and what is non-negotiable and what is okay, we can differ on some things.
Right? And I am starting in a week, going back to seminary for my M div. I didn't get to learn Greek or Hebrew the first go around, so I'm excited about that part.
Good luck. Yeah. I like languages. I've already been through the humility part and God put me down a peg or two, so I think I'm on the right path to, receive some things from the professors. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know, God bless your professors, who were so patient with you. Oh, they're the best.
Yeah. That's all I can ask [00:39:00] for. And now like I said, we don't really talk about politics on the show, but, the dangers of Christian nationalism and tribalism. it's like we're all in these different camps and they're all our enemies 'cause we're in our tribe and we don't go outside our tribe and Yeah, don't talk to anybody else, you know?
Unpack that a little for us 'cause you explained that so well.
Oh man. Yeah. There is, there's a movement. I mean, we're talking in America specifically, but not only in America. Not only in America of any stretch of the imaginations of Christians who are feeling, the loss of power and privilege, right?
Because undeniably Christians don't have the same place in, uh, many governments that they used to. That's an undeniable fact. Oh, mm-hmm. Totally agree. It's not the same. I'm in the Bible belt, there's still a church in every corner, but still it's not the same thing. It was 50 years ago. I wasn't alive 50 years ago, but [00:40:00] from what I understand, a hundred years ago, nobody was alive that long ago.
Probably that listened to the show could be wrong. Um, things are different. Sure. Right. And so there is a movement of people that say, we need to, we need to get back to what was, a place when Christianity was more normalized, had that power and privilege when it made sense to pray at a football game or something, when that was just a kind of a part of the culture.
And some of that is not necessarily bad. I'm always careful when I talk about Christian nationalism. Christian nationalism isn't Christians, spreading their faith or Christians having political opinions, but there comes a point when you have this nationalism, this tribalism, when it's just kind of this ugly mix of Christian values with American values, sometimes with some kind of, uh, white [00:41:00] supremacy kind of things mixed in.
And the kind of cake that comes out of this recipe is just not what Jesus wants from us. It's not close to the gospel, which talks about, peacemaking and is very pro humility and not taking power. And the Jesus we encounter in scripture is very much about the least of these, not so much about let me protect my rights or my privileges and things like that.
That's something Christians need to wrestle with. What are we engaging for? Are we. Engaging for what's best for me or what's best for, the person on the street or the person who just doesn't have anything or doesn't have the same, opportunities as us. Who are we fighting for when it comes to things in the political realm?
And so then, yeah, that's kind of Christian nationalism. In a nutshell, it's a, it's this project to, to take [00:42:00] over and to make things much more friendly to Christianity. And to be clear, like I do actually think the world would be better if everybody was Christian, but I don't want everybody to be Christian by the point of a sword .
Or because it's politically advantageous or better for business. That's not why I want somebody to encounter Jesus, because that's not how we encounter Jesus. And this isn't new. I mean, the church. The church, capital C Church has had some, a real trouble over history If, uh, you ever, looked into history, not some good moment.
There was some really bad moments in church history. Yeah. And those bad moments happened because, a church got in bed with Empire and they said, well, the king will serve God. When a lot of times it was God, quote unquote, serving the king, serving the emperor and getting whatever agenda he wanted.
I don't like these people. Well, God told me to do this, or [00:43:00] whatever. And it got ugly and bad and a lot of people died, which should have been red flag number one when a lot of people die. Probably not at all the way of Jesus. So we talk about that a lot on the show, in different fashions.
We, talk about politics a lot. Um, unfortunately. I don't love all the politics talk, but it's something we have to have. It's something that's important, because it affects real people. Yes. And, my brothers and sisters in Christ are going after some of these movements that are making more people, I think, fall away from Jesus because they say, hold on.
I read in the Bible this Jesus guy love him. But those Christians are not talking like Jesus. They're not acting like Jesus. They want to create laws that aren't like Jesus. What's going on here? Um. So, you know, I had a stint in college ministry. I've talked to a lot of young people and you know what, [00:44:00] why the young people are leaving.
It's the Christians. I hear the same story every time. It's not, well, Richard Dawkins had this great argument for evolution. That's not why they're leaving. Mm-hmm. I've heard like it's the, Christians supporting this genocide in this country, or, the Christians taking away the rights of this particular group or the racist or sexist language over here.
That's why, and that's really sad. And I want people to encounter that Christianity without compromise. Right. Really that's Jesus centered. And I think if we discover that, I think people will like that. And I think Jesus is pretty cool. We all gotta recognize that there's a lot of cool things about faith, but we have just cluttered it with idols and with, stuff that maybe is true but is not the most important thing to, to press somebody on.
And that makes me a little disappointed to use [00:45:00] that term. And sometimes it makes me quite angry. So, yeah.
Do you know who David Barton is? David Barton. I, that name is not ringing a bell. Well, he is like a pseudo historian. He made all of these, videos about how the nation was founded and it was pretty much a whitewashing of, colonial history and how wonderful the pilgrims were and had dinner with the, Native Americans and Right.
It was founded on Christian principles, and this is a Christian nation. Maybe some of that is true, but a lot of his books and, reels that he made were not substantiated by actual historians. So he goes to all these churches and talks about our, founder's history.
They were all Bible believing Christians, and we have to get back to our Bible roots. I've been reading a lot of history. Because my mother's [00:46:00] Cherokee, and I'm reading about my heritage. And no, we were not founded on Christianity or biblical principles.
There were a lot of, genocide. The Native Americans were almost exterminated. Of course we know about the slave trade. The slaves, they went through horrible, horrible things. we had, imperialism, stealing people's land, taking whatever they want and murdering whoever gets in their way. So Christian nationalism is very, dangerous because it takes away the truth. And marginalized people get seriously hurt.
Maybe that was their intent to build it on Christian principles, but that's not what happened.
And we don't wanna whitewash history. We don't want to pretend that stuff didn't happen. That we have to take ownership of that as a country. And I don't see that happening right now. It's like, okay, you're gonna try [00:47:00] and take change history. You can't change it and pretend it wasn't there.
Or learn from it, you know? Well, I definitely know work like his for sure. Yeah. And one of the things I try to, I don't just wanna put people down, poke holes into things, when it comes to something like this, whether you believed any of that or not. We always can discover the truth and we can change and we can make things better.
Wherever the nation has been or is going. Maybe not the best direction that we're going in, but I believe we can always turn as a people, as individuals, we can always change and go back to Jesus. I never wanna leave it on the downers, what I'm trying to say. Right, right. Yeah. Um, so I just wanted to throw that in there.
Uh, we can change, we can get back on track. I believe it. Yeah. I, there's definitely, things we can learn from our past and try and make mm-hmm. The world [00:48:00] a better place. Whatever part of the world we're in, we're we can influence our corner. Amen.
Absolutely. For Jesus.
Well, we've talked about a lot of stuff. We're all over the map today, but yeah. I love, loved what you said, what you shared with us, and, just going back and forth on things. And, I know you have your one question you always ask at the end of your show.
I'm not gonna steal your idea, but, do you have any advice for my audience that's listening, some closing thoughts, that you can give them? Yeah. Um, that's very funny. I briefly thought about it. I wonder if she's gonna throw this back at me.
A lot of my guests at the end of the show have a version of this. Um, but even if it wasn't popular, I would say something similar. I think we just need to listen more. We need to learn to listen. I think that's gonna help us spiritually. I think it's gonna help us. You know, as human beings in the world, I wanna challenge people to practice that discipline of [00:49:00] listening.
I'm a talker, right? I have a podcast. I do have other people talk a lot on my podcast though. So that's a great time for me to practice listening. But I want to, oh, jump in and, Nope, nope. I just think, yeah, we can all practice listening a little bit more. Strike up a conversation with somebody different than you and just listen and not try to refute them, right?
That's the old, that should be the old you. That was certainly the old me who is like, thinking of the argument in my head, how I'm gonna refute them, and not caring about them as a human being, not actually listening to the words they say. So, honestly, the most practical thing I can do is listen more.
It's just gonna help us be better human beings. And I think as we learn to listen to people more, I think we're also going to hear god much more clearly. Right. We are going to be, if we're not transformed by the patterns of this world, as Romans twelves tells us, the rest of that verse is so that you'll know the will of God do not be transformed by the patterns of this world.
But be but by the renewing of your mind. I'm butchering it out, but [00:50:00] all the parts are there. They, the point there is, we will know the will of God when we're not engaging in the patterns of the world. And one of these patterns of the world is talking more and not listening. So listen up everybody.
Well I appreciate that. I appreciate you coming back onto the show. Yeah. You are invited any time to come back and talk about whatever you want. I'll come back in season, I don't know, 10, 12, whatever you to yeah. Whatever I make it to.
There we go. Well, God bless you and hope you New Year. Yeah, thank you
I sure hope that you enjoyed Jake Doberenz. He is a wonderful speaker, wonderful human being. We talked about doing what we call a podcast swap. So.
I will be on Jake's show, uh, sometime in the future, within the next month or two, and I'll be telling my story and maybe talking about some of the [00:51:00] idols that I had to deal with and the idols that I need to smash. But you can reach out to Jake on his website that has all things. Jake, that will be jakedoberenz.com.
This will all be in the show notes, but you can see all of the different Ministries that he has.
The things that we talked about. So you can learn about his podcast, his substack writing, his books the Super Jake series. And he does preaching, and teaching in, other churches or conferences.
Listen to his podcast on all of the major, platforms that you're familiar with. His email is contact@jakedober.com. Reach out to him if he can be of any help to you.
Thanks for being here with us. [00:52:00] We will see you next time God bless and bye for now.
Thank you for listening to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast. If this episode has been helpful to you, please hit the subscribe button and tell a friend. You could connect with us at DSW Ministries dot org where you'll find our blog, along with our Facebook, Twitter, and our YouTube channel links. Hope to see you next week.

Exciting Life Changes: Diana's Journey Back to Seminary
 
In this new episode Diana shares a major life update: she is returning to seminary to pursue a Master of Divinity with the goal of becoming a hospital chaplain. Diana discusses the inspirations behind this decision, the requirements for becoming a chaplain, and how it aligns with her extensive background in ministry and healthcare. She addresses potential concerns about women in ministry, outlines her plans for the podcast during this busy period, and offers resources and support to listeners. Tune in to hear about Diana's exciting new chapter and her continued commitment to helping others through her podcast and future chaplaincy.
 
00:00 Introduction and Sponsor Message
00:47 Welcome to the Podcast
01:20 New Year Updates and Announcements
01:56 Journey to Becoming a Chaplain
05:12 Role and Responsibilities of a Chaplain
11:19 Podcast Changes and Future Plans
16:34 Conclusion and Support
 

In this episode, Diana's special guest Jake Doberenz, founder of Theophany Media and host of the Creatively Christian podcast, shares his expertise on effective Bible study. The discussion covers essential principles of biblical interpretation, the importance of studying scripture in community, and approaches to understanding difficult passages. Listeners are also guided on selecting appropriate Bible translations and utilizing various online resources, ensuring a comprehensive and balanced approach to scripture study. The episode concludes with a prayer for listeners' spiritual journey and their engagement with the scriptures.
Bio:
Jake Doberenz isn’t one thing. He identifies as a polymath, a Renaissance man, or a multipotentialite–one interest or specialty can’t contain him.
But enough of the third-person. I am a writer, speaker, minister, and creative thinker living in Oklahoma City, OK with my wife Samantha. My most significant role is the founder and president of Theophany Media, a Christian education company dedicated to helping Christians engage with culture through new media. I have earned my Master of Theological Studies at Oklahoma Christian University, the same place I earned my Bachelor’s degree in Bible with a minor in Communication Studies. I also worked at my alma mater as a Resident Director and Bible TA.
I write fiction and nonfiction in a variety of mediums, including poetry, short stories, books, stage plays, academic essays, and devotionals. I also venture out into other mediums, like podcasts and video. My favorite topics of choice to discuss and write about (though always changing) include: creating Christian art, helping people understand the Bible better, Christian identity, theology of social media, use of humor in faith messages, superheroes and theology, and a Christian response to culture.
If you want to see his progress, achievements, and appearances sign up for the newsletter so you’ll never miss an update!
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Home – Jake Doberenz
00:00 Introduction and Sponsor Message00:47 Welcome to the Podcast01:44 Introducing the Guest: Jake Doberenz02:43 Jake's Background and Interests05:56 Jake's Teaching Journey10:46 Bible Study for Abuse Survivors13:25 Choosing the Right Bible Translation18:42 Understanding the Bible Without Knowing Greek or Hebrew21:34 Basic Rules of Bible Interpretation25:43 Embracing Uncomfortable Bible Stories26:47 Using Jesus as a Lens for Interpretation30:54 The Importance of Community in Bible Study34:14 Red Flags in Spiritual Leadership37:02 Recommended Bible Study Resources41:33 Exploring Different Perspectives44:58 Connecting with the Speaker46:29 Closing Prayer and Final Thoughts
 
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Jake Doberenz
[00:00:00] Special thanks to 7 5 3 Academy for sponsoring this episode. No matter where you are in your fitness and health journey, they've got you covered. They specialize in helping you exceed your health and fitness goals, whether that is losing body fat, gaining muscle, or nutritional coaching to match your fitness levels.
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Sign up for your free class now. It's 7 5 3 academy.com. Find the link in the show notes.
Welcome to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast, brought to you by DSW Ministries. Your host is singer songwriter, speaker and domestic violence advocate, [00:01:00] Diana . She is passionate about helping survivors in the church heal from domestic violence and abuse and trauma. This podcast is not a substitute for professional counseling or qualified medical help.
Now here is Diana.
Hey there, everybody. Come on in, set for a spell. How are you guys doing? I appreciate your support in listening to the podcast, and I hope that you are enjoying some really encouraging words and practical things for you to do your own Bible study and read the word of God for yourself.
We have a new guest on the show now I'm very familiar with his podcast, creatively Christian. I've been on his podcast. His show has a few different interviewers. And so [00:02:00] Andrea Sandifer, who you guys know that was on the show, she interviewed me on her show.
And our guest today, Jake Doberenz, the man behind that podcast, he is a funny guy. He likes to bring humor from the Bible. And I've been reading his blog and following his newsletters. And his Facebook group. So I thought he would be a great addition to the podcast , and I think you're gonna love him.
I'm gonna tell you a little bit about him. He has a lot of interest here, so here we go. Jake, Doberenz isn't one thing. He identifies as a polymath, a renaissance man or a multipotentialite. One interest or specialty, can't contain him. So he [00:03:00] says of himself, but enough of the third person. I'm a writer, speaker, minister, and creative thinker, living in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma.
My most significant role is the founder and president of Theophany Media. A Christian education company dedicated to helping Christians engage with culture through new media. I have earned my Master of Theological studies at Oklahoma Christian University, the same place I earned my bachelor's degree in Bible with a minor in communication studies.
I also worked at my alma matter as a resident director and bible ta. I write fiction and nonfiction in a variety of mediums, including poetry, short stories, books, stage plays, academic essays, and [00:04:00] devotionals. I also venture out into other mediums like podcasts and video, my favorite topics of choice to discuss and write about.
Although always changing, include creating Christian art, helping people understand the Bible better. Christian identity, theology of social media, use of humor in faith messages, super heroes and theology, any Christian response to culture. So this is gonna be awesome. So I hope that you enjoy my conversation with Jake Doberenz.
Please welcome to the show, Jake Doberenz. Thanks for coming on today. Sure thing, anytime. I'm glad to be here. I really enjoyed being on your [00:05:00] podcast, A creatively Christian, and Andrea interviewed me and then she was on my podcast and I follow your Facebook group and get your. Very humorous email newsletter.
And so I thought you were the perfect fit to come on to the podcast. And you're a bible geek like me, and you have a different perspective on life. In the Bible, you find humor in the Bible, which a lot of people don't find the Bible very funny. So welcome to the show. Yeah, I'm glad to be here providing some humor and quite possibly even some wisdom and intelligent comments.
We'll see if we get to that part. So you haven't been on the podcast before, so. Tell the folks a little bit about yourself and your family. Okay? Yeah. Always a fun question because where do you [00:06:00] start? Where do you end?
But yeah. I am in Oklahoma City right now. I'm an Oregon native and got stuck in Oklahoma. Stuck sounds too negative, but I got planted here. That sounds better. I got my bachelor's degree in biblical studies with a minor in communication studies.
I have a Master's of Theological studies and for a while I was kind of going down the Bible professor route. That was gonna be my thing. And it's not like completely off the table right now, but it is not my chief kind of path anymore because there are not a lot of jobs in that area and there's a lot of different things there that make it quite challenging.
A lot of schooling, a lot of debt for maybe not so much reward, but we'll see what the future brings. I am still flexing my desires to write and teach. That has always been what I wanted to do, even when the subject changed, even when it [00:07:00] was cat psychology or whatever, I always wanted to write and teach and so I'm still doing that in in different ways.
I'm certainly still using my degrees, even though I'll be going into teaching middle school geography this year. Ooh, kind of a new adventure. Add some more skills and weird things on my resume. That's kind of how I do it. So geography. Cool. I think that's me. Yeah. Yeah. That's very brave. Middle school, that particular age, did you pick the age group you were teaching or did they just kind of throw you in there?
I applied to high school and middle school. I wasn't going to do anybody under middle school and the high school jobs never called me back. And the, I got some different offerings on the middle school side of thing, so I said, okay, that's what you want me to do. God, I will walk into this wilderness. And then they gave me some kind of choices between, and I chose sixth grade specifically, so I'll be with, with sixth graders.
[00:08:00] They, uh, we still have some childlike heart and wonder. They're not so jaded like they get when they're a little older, but they're just mature enough where you can start to get a little more serious. So good age. Hmm. I liked sixth grade. It was a good year. We'll be praying for you either way, because that's a lot of work and mm-hmm.
But geography's cool. I like Bible geography. Ever since I went to Israel in 2019. How different reading the Bible is when you've been to those places. Have you been to Israel? I haven't. No, I haven't. Yeah. If you're into geography, you would really love going to Israel for obvious reasons, of course, but geography, it just makes the Bible come alive when you've been to the place where Jesus put legion into the herd of pigs and over the cliff.
Sure. And I've been to that cliff, and so you can see it now in your head. It's awesome. Or you've been on the Sea of [00:09:00] Galilee and you can actually imagine Jesus walking on the water and because been in the boat. So, yeah, I'm just getting into being interested in geography right now. There you go. Yeah. Cool.
What would you say is your particular specialty as far as Bible goes? Yeah. I did my master's thesis on Paul's view of spiritual formation, specifically from one Corinthians chapter three, verse three. Four, just around there. So that's a very specific kind of thing. Most of my training has actually been more on the New Testament side.
Specifically Paul, I've done a lot of more academic work with the use of children as a metaphor in the Bible. I've done work with that in both Paul and the Gospels. Sexuality in the New Testament has been something I've kind of explored. [00:10:00] Nowadays though, I have more of theological interests and I'm asking some different kinds of questions.
You don't divorce theology from the Bible, but they're just different kinds of questions and different kinds of, and ways and sources for that. But in terms of Bible, yeah, a lot of studying Paul and a lot of thinking about sort of how he makes arguments and specifically like in that thesis, it was all about how he used this metaphor about.
Being an infant in Christ, what does all that mean? And how does that reflect how we grow as people? And so I've gone down those kind of rabbit trails a lot my my day. That's really interesting. A Paul's usually a favorite Bible character. Most people, though you can, you never go wrong with the Apostle Paul now.
So today we're talking about Bible study for abuse survivors. And reason why we're doing this is because when we've gone through abuse, usually there's some spiritual [00:11:00] abuse involved and we want to distance ourself from God because we've experienced that spiritual abuse and that affects our relationship with God.
And a lot of people once they leave or get out of the abuse. Then they're like, okay, I don't wanna read the Bible, I don't wanna pray, and I don't wanna go to church anymore. I don't trust anybody. But I'm trying to encourage on this podcast to come and if you have questions, let's talk about the questions.
So, so I've kind of answered my own question, why should we study the Bible for ourselves? But what would you say to that or add to that? Yeah, I think what I would add to that is that, um, one thing that our teachers or pastors or scholars don't have is that they're not you. You are yourself and you come with your experiences and you come [00:12:00] with your own personality and identity, and you are gonna often pick up things that other people might miss, or you're gonna just sort of focus on things more realize as a thread of a theme or something like that.
We, we shouldn't come to the Bible biased necessarily, or with too many preconceived notions. 'cause then the text starts to say what we want it to say. That's not what I'm saying. But we do bring ourselves to the text and we have to admit that like, I'm not reading this in a vacuum. I'm reading this because of who I am and what I've experienced and all these things like that.
And I think that's really powerful. And I think the Bible is, it's strong enough to take it. Like it's not about pulling whatever meaning you want from it, like I said, but it is about seeing things that are hidden in this multi-layered onion like text here that has so much stuff in it that we can't expect.
Even a really smart [00:13:00] guy to just know everything. So yeah, we gotta study the Bible for ourselves. We gotta do our own digging and our own reading. See what we can find. Yeah, I like that answer. Bringing yourself to the table that's. Different than what somebody else would bring to the table. So let's start with something everybody asks about.
When it comes to Bible study, you go to the bookstore and you're trying to pick out a Bible, and there's a gazillion different Bible versions out there, and too many versions, in my opinion. Which one do I pick? Does it matter? At the end of the day, it probably doesn't matter. There are those that are better than others, and I'm the term better here.
You can use that in different ways. I'm using the term better as in. More accurate to the text, although, hey, we are translating language here. [00:14:00] Translation is an art, not a science, which makes us a little uncomfortable. We can still get that meaning across. You're a, you're an artist and you're a creative.
You can still communicate accurately and faithfully even through a song or something like that. And so in the same way, translation is a little bit of an art form and there are people that have to choose certain words, and I think this means that. So yeah, there are some that are more quote unquote scholarly and others that are more paraphrased, like the message, or it's something like the amplified Bible that is just trying to sort of squeeze some more possible meaning out there by becoming like glorified the Sorut.
So you got some different options. Most readings are probably not gonna hurt you, at least. As long as you understand like kind of what's going on here. I know in the past the King James has had the word unicorns in it and that that threw some people off and then later we're like, actually we should have translated that.
Like Gazelle was not supposed to be translated unicorn. So [00:15:00] okay, we can get some things here that might throw some people off, but as long as we kind of give some grace to the translators, something like the King James is older and we have some different data. We have some older manuscripts that we're pulling from now.
So yeah, it's gonna be a little bit more closer to what the originals were saying kind of thing. So yeah, there are those considerations, but I don't think you're gonna make or break your faith if you read the ESV over the NRSV or something like that. Yeah, well I came from a camp that, uh, they were very definitive in what Bible you should read and which ones you should not read and Sure.
And they were very dogmatic in that I've changed my stance since then. Because I've actually dug into that sort of thing that okay, you, so you're saying that most of the mainline translations out there, we will still get the main [00:16:00] point of what Bio was trying to say. Right. Yeah, I don't know any that are too left field and crazy or something like that.
There are versions, like, I could be wrong about this, but I think the Jehovah's Witness has versions of the Bible that seem to play a little fast and loose with some things and have cut out some different stuff. So obviously I wouldn't necessarily recommend that for Christians. The only other thing I would say is make sure a bunch of different people were involved.
Most translations are. Large groups of people. And then you have things like I mentioned the message that Eugene Peterson did, it was just him, but he wasn't necessarily trying to make a definitive thing. That's more of a paraphrase translation, which is like a devotional rather than something to study.
So there are just different uses for all these different things. There are, I could go into the weeds. My dad used to own a Christian bookstore. Oh. And so you have your thought for thought translations and then you have your word for word. And [00:17:00] some people think word for word is better because it's more accurate.
But the thing, the problem is the Bible might literally say X, but when we translate that word to today, it makes no sense because language is weird like that. And then so the thought for thought is going to be more of an interpretation, but they're trying to say, okay, but what this is trying to say is this and, and here's a thought that you can digest and that makes sense to you.
So it's just kind of what you want, but thanks to the internet. In fact, on another screen here, I have pulled up Bible gateway.com. That's what I use a lot. You can look through all sorts of different translations and compare and contrast. If I really wanted to study with more than one, it's legal in most states, so go for it.
It's funny you mentioned the message because that was my first Bible when I got saved. My okay friend that I met in high school, I told her I had gotten saved and I didn't have a Bible, and she gave me the message, which [00:18:00] was her Bible, and I loved it. Oh yeah. I highlighted that thing and Oh yeah. And I just tore it up with underlining and I couldn't wait to read it.
And then of course you get to Bible college and they tear it out of your hands, so yeah. But yeah, I like the ESV today. I have. A really nice archeology study Bible I bought and I've, I've read the King James most of my Christian life. And switching to another translation was really eye-opening. All this different stuff that I hadn't seen before just popped out, like I didn't know the Bible said that.
Wow. It's pretty neat. So along the same lines, do we have to be a Greek and Hebrew scholar to understand the Bible? I hope not because I struggled through Greek and barely made that alive, and so languages are not my strong [00:19:00] suit. Uh, but I think the answer is of course, no. You don't have to be. It depends on what kind of study you're doing, and I probably should have mentioned that earlier, but there's a way to look at the Bible in an academic, scholarly way, and there are some Christians that.
Think that's wrong or bad? I don't think it's bad. It's just one way to look at it. When I am in scholarship, when I'm writing this college paper, I am, I have to kind of slice and dice it and I'm doing a work that an atheist could do. It's that kind of work. But then there's another way to look at the Bible that is much more pastorally or for spiritual formation, the kind of thing that treats the text as sacred that an atheist can't do.
So if you're doing the academic work, it really helps to know the words because you're trying to get as precise as possible and getting into there. But luckily for us, other people have done the work for us and we have these English translations, so woo. You don't need to know Hebrew and Coin a Greek and [00:20:00] a little bit of Aramic and like Daniel or whatever.
Like we don't have to know that because somebody else has done the work for us. And I mentioned already like. There's a lot of people involved in a Bible translation, not just one guy. It's, a lot of people have done this work and they've argued and yelled at each other and come to some conclusions to say, this is the best we can do right now.
This is what we got. So, yeah, we don't have to, we don't have to be language PS so, woo. Lucky. Yes. Yeah. I mean, I'm a language geek. I love languages. Personally, I speak two languages besides English, but I haven't taken any Greek or, or Hebrew, maybe someday, but they didn't cover that in my Bible college. But it's good that we already have the tools online that, hey, this is a translation for that word in.
There's really no, no real argument about it is there along mainline denominations. Yeah. Most people probably aren't gonna tell you. You have to know all those languages unless somebody there. There are groups of people that would say [00:21:00] the only inspired text of the Bible is the actual original Greek and Hebrew.
And so our English translations are not inspired. But that's a minority view. That's not super common. Yeah. Yeah. The most people can understand. The inspiration still comes through, even when it's translating different languages. The word of gods for the whole world, not just those that can speak actually dead languages that nobody speaks today like Latin.
Yeah. So now we're gonna get into the nitty gritty here. Okay. When we are sitting down with our Bible and we're deciding to. Study a passage of scripture or maybe a book. What are some basic rules of interpretation? Now we use the fancy big word hermeneutics, but like the basic ones that you really shouldn't ignore in order to.
Do a proper Bible study. This is one that gets definitely drilled [00:22:00] into in Bible school and in other contexts, but it's that actual, it's a word context like context is key. Context is king, and one of the best things we can do is zoom out. So if we're looking at a particular scripture. Like one verse, we zoom out to the chapter.
Those headings or whatever aren't like God inspired or whatever, but they're helpful to kind of see what the flow of things are. Then we can zoom out to the book level and sometimes zoom out to the biblical level and things like that. But that is always key. Sometimes we get into trouble thinking that the Bible is just like, the whole thing is like Proverbs, where everything's just disconnected and you got these good one-liners and they're fun and they're good zingers, but most of it is some kind of story or, and Paul, I mentioned that being some of my background, Paul's letters are arguments they build on top of each other, and so you can see if we're trying to look at something wild like.
One [00:23:00] Corinthians 14 or something, we can understand it because by just kind of going a little backwards and Oh, okay. So that's always really important. And a lot of times authors in the Bible will also tell us kind of their themes and tell us what they really want us to get across. The gospel of John, for instance, is written so that we may believe Luke talks about writing in a, an orderly account of things.
So we have some of these statements that if we zoom out a little bit, oh, okay, we can make sense of this in light of that. And so different things like that. But we could go all day into the hermeneutics and then the other fancy word, X of Jesus and that kind of stuff. But at the end of the day, a tool anybody can use is something I learned in elementary school when there was a hard word.
It was called rat read around the text. Read around the text. Ooh, that's the acronym there. And that just helps us understand, wait, what is going on? What does Paul mean when he says this? Why is [00:24:00] this guy saying this in judges? Let's take a look. What else is going on here? So it's just a great tool that anybody can use be if they can just zoom out a little bit and read the rest of the Bible and the rest of the passage.
Everybody gives a different answer to that question. Now, obviously when we read the Bible, we come upon these passages or some of the stories that are either difficult to understand or it's a topic that we don't wanna deal with. It's really hard to swallow. Like a lot of times it's the genocide passages, of course.
Mm-hmm. And or similar things like that. What do we do when we encounter those passages? Yeah. There are also passages that are sometimes called, and the genocide fits into this, but passages called texts of terror. A lot of passages about different abuse situation, and [00:25:00] I won't go into all of those, but I'm sure a lot of us can come up with some things that mm-hmm.
Can be triggering in the Bible that seem just really messed up and stuff like that. So I think what's important, first of all is we recognize the, the gut feeling, the awkwardness talk to the beginning about how I see humor in the Bible and I do, I think there are some things in the Bible that we should laugh at.
It's actually hilarious. Tell us about what Jonah gets swallowed by a big fish. That's funny. You should be laughing. And it's hilarious that he wants this city destroyed and he's supposed to be a prophet of God and he's not doing his job description and stuff like that. So like. When it's funny, we should laugh and when it's not funny, when it's uncomfortable, we should be okay being uncomfortable.
I, I remember when I did college ministry for a time, we talked about the story of, oh man, I can't remember if it's Eli, I think it's Elijah. [00:26:00] And when they make fun of him for being bald and he calls these, she bears to attack these 40 youths, and he, this kid would kid could not get over it. He's like, why is this in the Bible?
This is ridiculous. And I just tried to help him. Yeah, let's feel that first. Let's feel that, oh boy, we got some emotions here. So step one, I think it's totally okay to feel those things and then we can do some digging. Again, it's that zooming out. Let's look at the context here. Let's look what's going on there.
A lot of times I think some of these texts of terror or uncomfortable texts, um. Sometimes they're not as bad when we look at it through maybe a historical lens or something, but sometimes we can't just justify them really nice and neatly, like some of the stuff about genocide. So ultimately, I have to go back to Jesus because.
Jesus is the ultimate expression of God. It is the best [00:27:00] lens into the divine that we've ever seen. It's through this person of Jesus. And so sometimes we got to use our Jesus magnifying glass and look over the scripture and say, that's awkward. I don't like that very much. This makes me, this triggers me.
This is, uh, but we put Jesus over and say, but through Christ, we don't have to live like that. We can recognize that there. There are plenty of examples of what not to do in the Bible. Jesus calls us to a different way and Jesus shows us that some things that maybe people thought were really godly and divine at certain points were not.
So at the end of the day when things make us uncomfortable, I say feel it. But then ultimately, let's just go back. What does Jesus say? And if Jesus words are kind of. Don't seem to jive with this other crazy stuff going on here. Let's just, let's follow Jesus over some of this, [00:28:00] this other uncomfortable things.
Hmm. So it's probably not a satisfying answer, but that's kind of like the point, like we try too hard sometimes to wrap everything in a pretty bow, but sometimes we just can't. With the Bible, the Bible is complicated and that's what makes it powerful. It's not always so neat and tidy and doesn't always make you feel good.
It is a like Christ. It is both human, fully human and fully divine. And in that there's some awkward tension. There are some, there are human emotions and human things that that bleed through the divine pages of scripture. I appreciate the honest answer and yeah, I think that was a great answer. It was just reading through the patriarchs and wow, you just wrap your head around how much they messed up.
And that's not how God wanted us to live. That's just an example of God just lets [00:29:00] everybody see how these people messed up. But still, God used them in a mighty way. God still gave them grace and forgiveness and love and mercy. I was just on Twitter and that's a dangerous place is Christian Twitter. Oh my goodness.
And there was a big thread about some people, they didn't believe that Jesus was the same God as the God of the Old Testament. They cut the line because they thought Jesus over here in the New Testament, his attribute seems so different than. The God of the Old Testament. I don't necessarily agree with that, but that was an interesting concept.
That's how they dealt with those horrible stories. I'm just gonna just trust in Jesus and just believe in Jesus and throw everything else away. Yeah. That's a heresy in the second century that, um, yeah. You know, unfortunately haven't quite gotten rid of completely, but is that's what that's called still alive and, [00:30:00] yeah.
Oh, that's what you call it. Okay. There's your little fun little historical theology trivia, but yeah, there's probably a word for it. But that goes into my next question is how do you study the Bible and read it and make sure that you're not slipping into some heretical teaching, because I personally know some people that they believe some stuff that's way off base that nobody else.
And mainline Christianity believes in, but they're like quoting Bible verses and taking them outta context. How do we avoid going down that path? Yeah, yeah. I had a youth minister who used to joke that if you wanted to, he could justify kicking babies across the room from scripture. Like that was just his wild example because yeah, people can kind of justify the whole gambit of things.
So I think now we talked about why it's important to study the Bible for yourself. [00:31:00] At the same time though, I think this living, breathing scripture. Is something that we must read through community. You can do your own work, do your own prep, but ultimately the Bible belongs to all of us. And so we need to read in community.
And that can mean your pastors and teachers and your scholars. It can also mean your neighbor and your friend and your kids and your mom and your cousin from a couple states away. But it can also mean dead people, not like seance or whatever, but like, um-ing, you know, read these old preachers and read the church fathers and the church mothers and like, we got 2000 years of Christian history here.
There's some wild stuff, but there's some good stuff too. So I say we read scripture in community and you come to your own conclusions. Don't just copy paste whatever Mr. X, Y, Z says, but. What do they [00:32:00] think? And when we start looking at, oh, Christians have kind of seemed to think this for a long time, probably a direction we should lean in.
I don't know. I guess people could be wrong, but the way the spirit works I think is a lot of times through community. And it's a way to check, it's a checks and balance for ourselves. So I think that sometimes we can get a little, a little wild with our own interpretations, but we bring in other people.
What do you think? Did you see this too? Is this accurate? Is this, does this fit in with historical context of first century Palestine? Or whatever kind of questions you want to ask community. So that's flesh and blood people, but that's also books and podcasts and all sorts of things. I just think we're made to be together.
And honestly, when I studied Paul's view of spiritual formation for my thesis, I didn't get to dive into it too much, but what I kept coming across is spiritual formation is not a. You on your own [00:33:00] kind of thing. It is something that happens with people who are this great cloud of witnesses that is cheering you on and it's helping you out.
So I think that's a great way to kind of check, check ourselves, and then of course, use your brain. Let's be logical here that scripture probably not actually talking about America because it was written 3000 years ago. I don't know. Thank you. Um, so, so stuff like that, we gotta use our brains. Yeah. I like when you talk about community, because I think, and I've seen this before people go off the rails, is that they're isolating themselves.
Mm-hmm. They don't wanna go to church because they don't trust, they don't trust people that they've been hurt. But even if we can't drag ourselves to church just yet in our healing process, yeah. There are other ways to create community and checks and balances. So that's a really good point. We really don't want [00:34:00] to be that guy that started his own denomination on a couple bible verses.
Yeah, we got plenty of denominations. I think we're set for a little bit, so let's just chill out for now. Yeah, that's crazy. So like if we're in a community, we're under our Bible teacher or a pastor or Sunday school class, what would be like a red flag that would put your antennas up? Hey, you may wanna check this out for this preacher teacher saying is not a good thing.
Are there any like red flags that you would look for? I think arrogance is definitely a big red flag. Ooh, good one. And that is how you get into spiritual, spiritually abusive situations. Definitely. And what I mean by arrogance is people that are not willing to be corrected, not willing to admit the wrong, not willing to learn.
I was privileged to have professors where I was getting my Bible degrees. People with [00:35:00] PhDs from the prestigious British universities who would listen to student comments and be like, that's really interesting. Or, heard it like that. Tell me more about that. And one of my Hebrew Bible professors spoke like nine languages.
Most of those are dead ones. And still he's curious to know what these 20-year-old college students are thinking. Which is wild because he is way smarter than us. But he is. These guys were adopting this posture of, I can learn from anybody here. I want your perspective. And I could be wrong. We gotta have some things where we have a firm foundation and where we don't sway.
We absolutely have to have those. There are some people these days that I think sort of lean too heavily into the wishy-washy. It depends on the day, what I'm feeling, cafeteria style Christianity. We can't do that. But we also can't go over here where it's, I figured it out when I was 30 years old, when I was 40 years old, and now I'm like, [00:36:00] done.
I'm done learning. Got it right. I to be the only one to get it right. And that's how denominations start, right? Ooh, everybody else got it wrong all the time. Now I'm right. So that's dangerous. So let's learn from people who are themselves. Learners who are willing to be challenged and to ask questions and wanna know your take on things.
I know from being in ministry settings that oftentimes I am the guy with the more Bible degrees than most people in the room. But then there'll be these 70-year-old church ladies who have lived this and they've been in the Bible their whole life. I can learn from them. Mm-hmm. They have something to say, even though they've never read the text in Greek.
They have something to add to the conversation. Mm-hmm. So we need to be learners. I love that. That is so awesome and so very true. The Holy Spirit speaks to each of us individually and gives us different [00:37:00] lessons and we can share those lessons. Now, you as a scholarly person, you must have some favorite resources that you use to study the bible.
Can you recommend some specific resources that are maybe easy to use? Yeah, there's a couple websites, Bible gateway, I mentioned that already. They have. Some free commentaries and bible encyclopedias and things kind of on the sidebar there. So as you're looking to scripture, you could glorify and study Bible or have access to chunks from different commentaries.
And for a while, while I was doing some more preaching, I actually did the paid, there's a kind of a paid version that it was like five bucks a month or something really cheap like that. It just got access to more things so I can have the scripture here and then all my resources next to it. And that was handy.
Bible hub.com is also another one. [00:38:00] Um, that one's especially good if you do wanna look at the language stuff, knowing that you're not a scholar, you can say, but what is that Greek word? And you can click on it and it will show you the definitions, show you other places in scripture it's used. You can kind of get a feel for that.
So that's a really good one for people who are not, who don't know the languages or. Like me who always needed help with my Greek homework or something like that. So yeah, those come to mind. But man, like we are, we at our fingertips. There's a lot of good stuff out there. A lot of bad stuff, no doubt. But there are podcasts and all sorts of books and there's just, there's a lot of good stuff there.
Wouldn't even know where to begin, just sort of thinking broadly. But I think Bible gateway, Bible hub, easy. Anybody can access those for free. And you don't necessarily need a giant library or really expensive commentary sets 'cause they're really expensive. Yeah. That's why my parents get me one commentary for my birthday and [00:39:00] for Christmas each year.
And so in 50 years I'll have the full set or whatever. That's not true. That's, it'll actually probably be. I can't do the math however it takes to get 66 books. But anyway. Wow. All I had in bible college that we were allowed to have is Matthew Henry commentary, which is kind of on the dry side. Yeah. Most Bible professors would pass out hearing you say that.
It's not bad stuff, but bad, but it's not, it's not easy to read it's thing, let's just say. Yeah. And we were allowed to read Weirs, BE'S books. It's a pretty good series about where I came from. John MacArthur's commentaries were like hearsay. Oh, okay. The Baptist didn't like the, at least the churches that I was in, they didn't like MacArthur's stuff, but, and I had the actual strong concordance.
I still own that's, yeah, sure. So sort of a free way to get that, besides if you don't want to get a giant [00:40:00] volume. Yeah. I like to read the physical books too. Sure. Nothing, not knocking the physical. But yeah, if people are on a budget, yeah, people are on a budget and you can't go and buy those big, huge coffee table books.
Or if you're near a Christian university, see if you can get a library card that's, they have tons of stuff. I can walk in there and there are a whole shelf of like Genesis commentaries or whatever. It could be information overload. But also I can, I'll pick up a couple different volumes of different perspectives and I'll read what they each have to say about the verse or chapter I'm dealing with and I can kind of synthesize a conclusion.
And that's how you do it. Yeah. I'll also mention, I, we were allowed to. Listen on the radio, Jay Vernon McGee and yeah, he was definitely expository. He [00:41:00] would go verse by verse and go through the entire Bible verse by verse, which I thought was really good. And I don't agree with everything he said, but that's the way I learned a lot of stuff was through verse by verse radio program back in the day.
Mm. I'm dating myself, aren't I? It's all good here. All good. No, we talked a lot about a bunch of different stuff. Is there anything about Bible study that we didn't talk about that you would like to mention? I know there's so much, uh, yeah, I just touched on it a little bit, but I kind of wanna bring it back.
Look at different views than yours. If you are really charismatic, then look at something that's not quite charismatic, or if you are. I won't go. I'll skip all those differences. You know what? You are read some of the stuff that's a little different. Stuff that challenges you. That's how we grow. That's how we grow, [00:42:00] is to hear something a little different.
And the thing is, you're not required to believe it. Right. You can just read it and at least know what they're saying. I know in my Christian upbringing, and not necessarily I was intentional, but I only knew my side of the argument. Or if I knew somebody else's argument, it was this straw man version that was just not accurate.
And then I, you go to the big wide world and be like, oh wait, there are lots of different views. And those people are actually smart and they have things to say about this, but somebody else is the opposite and they're also a smart person. What's going on? It's just good to expose ourselves to different things.
In most cases we could, we, you can choose your own boundaries and things like that. Mm-hmm. It doesn't mean if you're studying something in the Old Testament, you have to read the Jewish and the Muslim and the Mormon view of what. It doesn't mean you have to go there, but just check out some different things.
Have your favorite commentaries. Do it, but every once in a while [00:43:00] peek into your, your local heretic and see what they have to say. I dunno, maybe not a heretic, somebody who's a little different. You, you, your istic. Yeah. Our last guest was talking about Calvinism and stuff, but yeah, doesn, excellent suggestion because I definitely was in my own camp for many years until I got out of my abusive situation and started looking into other views and I have since changed nothing major.
I didn't change any major views, but I realized that okay, there are other Godly people. Now I see they can use scripture to defend their position too. And there's a little bit of wiggle room in there for sure. Sure. For different viewpoints. I went and did a study and looked at somebody else's view on a tertiary argument.
Sure. Tertiary doctrine. It's not a doctrine of the faith, but [00:44:00] something that's very important and it's like, okay, I'm not gonna be judgmental. And that was hard for me to change my viewpoint. Yeah, yeah. But they gave me really great scriptural evidence. So yeah, that's kind of a sideline, but you made excellent point.
But anyway, I appreciate you sharing all this valuable information and your view, viewpoint, and it's fascinating. Everybody has different answers for these questions. I've asked everybody the same questions. Right. And they're all giving me different answers, which I think that's very helpful. Oh yeah. Yeah.
Very helpful. Yeah, getting people exposed to different things and again, like I am me and you are you, and we're different. And that's the point. Like we all come together with our different focuses and our different backgrounds and knowledge, and together we are the body of Christ. Amen. And that's beautiful.
So tell the folks [00:45:00] how people can connect with you and you have resources and maybe if they wanna play stump the Bible teacher, they can email you. Yeah, you can find that all about me@jakedobern.com. D-O-B-E-R-E-N-Z as in zebra. And that's kind of my home base on the interwebs. If you do jake dovers.com/email, you can get on my email list that was mentioned earlier where I talk about.
Funny stories from my life that have spiritual points, and I bring out spiritual points from that. And yeah, you can definitely contact me through social media or email, and that's all on my website there. So I'll let you track me down and tell me how wrong I am and all of that kind of stuff. That's fun.
It comes with the territory, so totally okay with that. And then lastly, I do a bunch of work with Christian creatives, with Fiani [00:46:00] Media, and as was mentioned, I produce the Creatively Christian podcast. So I would love for you to check that out if that's kind of your thing, if that's your area. Yeah. You guys have a real great variety of guests on that show.
It's not just one particular kind of art. You guys represent a lot of different ones, which is fun. Oh yeah. And we're trying to get more variety all the time. Awesome. Now. I don't usually have guests pray on the show, but would you pray for our listeners in their journey in the scriptures? Of course. Let's go ahead and pray.
Heavenly God, we come to you in prayer on this podcast episode and we ask that whoever's listening now in the future, in a couple years, where wherever we are, that, that we can be receptive to how you speak to us through scripture and through our [00:47:00] communities that help us see scripture. Let the spirit guide us as we dive into this sacred but sometimes confusing and complicated documents.
Lord, I ask that you give us the wisdom to be able to rightly divide your word and to remain faithful even when our own preferences might wanna lean in a different direction. Lord, thank you so much for the ministry of this podcast. We pray that people continue to have healing and continue to find themselves in a better place, both in the world and with you spiritually.
In Jesus' name, amen. Amen. Thank you so much for coming on the show. God bless you. Sure thing. God bless you.
Thank you for listening to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast. If this episode has been helpful [00:48:00] to you, please hit the subscribe button and tell a friend. You could connect with us at DSW Ministries dot org where you'll find our blog, along with our Facebook, Twitter, and our YouTube channel links.
Hope to see you next week.

In this episode, the focus is on clergy abuse—a topic made even more pressing by recent headlines. The featured guest, Sandy Phillips Kirkham, shares her harrowing ordeal of being abused by a charismatic youth pastor starting at the age of 16. Sandy discusses the grooming process, the five years of abuse, and how she was ultimately expelled from her church while her abuser was merely relocated. She delves into the long-lasting impact of the abuse on her life and her spiritual journey, how she concealed her trauma for 27 years, and how she ultimately confronted her abuser. Sandy also provides valuable insights and actionable advice for preventing abuse and supporting victims within church communities. Her story is also detailed in her book, ‘Let Me Prey on You,’ which offers a detailed account of her journey from victim to advocate.
00:00 Introduction and Sponsor Message00:47 Welcome to the Podcast01:32 Introducing Today's Topic: Clergy Abuse02:17 Sandy Phillips Kirkham's Early Life and Church Involvement06:22 Meeting the Abuser: The Charismatic Youth Pastor08:43 Red Flags and Grooming Tactics13:51 The First Inappropriate Act16:37 The Abuse Escalates21:06 The Aftermath and Church's Response28:15 Life After Abuse: Marriage and Keeping Secrets32:09 Protecting Future Generations35:17 The Importance of Sex Education in the Church36:32 Techniques for Discussing Sex with Children37:22 Personal Experiences with Sex Education38:20 Triggering Memories and Emotional Breakdown40:13 The Journey of Healing Begins41:31 Understanding Clergy Abuse and Self-Forgiveness43:52 Confronting the Abuser47:07 Challenges in Seeking Justice54:47 Preventing Abuse in the Church01:00:31 Supporting Victims of Clergy Abuse01:05:07 Final Thoughts and Resources
Sandy Kirkham and her husband Bill enjoy life with their two grown children, two beautiful granddaughters, and two fairly well-behaved dogs. Sandy continues to use her voice to help victims of clergy abuse. She currently serves on the board of Council Against Child Abuse. Sandy has spoken before the Ohio Senate, a Maryland court, and appeared on a local television show in Boston. Her story, “Stolen Innocence,” was told in a documentary produced by The Hope of Survivors. Sandy works with survivors conducting victim support conferences. She has participated in The Voice of the Faithful (VOTF) panels moderated by SNAP (Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests), sharing her perspective from the non-Catholic point of view. Sandy has been a presenter/speaker at major events on clergy abuse including the Hope & Healing Conference. Sandy has earned a certificate of completion from the Faith Trust Institute entitled, “A Sacred Trust: Boundary Issues for Clergy and Spiritual Teachers.”
https://sandyphillipskirkham.com/
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Sandy Phillips Kirkham
[00:00:00] Special thanks to 7 5 3 Academy for sponsoring this episode. No matter where you are in your fitness and health journey, they've got you covered. They specialize in helping you exceed your health and fitness goals, whether that is losing body fat, gaining muscle, or nutritional coaching to match your fitness levels.
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Welcome to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast, brought to you by DSW Ministries. Your host is singer songwriter, speaker and domestic violence advocate, [00:01:00] Diana Winkler. She is passionate about helping survivors in the church heal from domestic violence and abuse and trauma. This podcast is not a substitute for professional counseling or qualified medical help.
Now here is Diana.
Hello. Welcome everyone. Welcome to my regular listeners, as well as some new listeners that have joined us today. I have a great guest for you today. We're going to be talking about clergy abuse today. Religious leader, abuse. Pastor, youth leader. You've seen this in the news recently with all these preachers being arrested or charged with sexual misconduct or rape or [00:02:00] pedophilia.
I'm sure you've seen the news. Well, today we're going to hear a story about a woman who's been victimized in that way and she's fighting back. So let me read her bio for you. A church is where an insecure 16-year-old girl should feel welcome, happy, and most importantly, safe tragically. For some, the church can become a place of great harm.
Sandy Phillips Kirkham details her account of how charismatic youth minister preyed upon her, a betrayal which left her broken with a shattered faith and the ultimate shame of being blamed enforced from the church she loved. Despite a successful and happy life, is a wife, mother, and friend. Sandy successfully concealed her abuse for [00:03:00] 27 years until a trigger forced her to face the truth.
Sandy's story will take you on her journey of healing. Her strength and courage will inspire you. Let me pray upon you her book details. Sandy's journey from innocent 16-year-old, a victim to a survivor, and advocate. We please welcome Sandy Phillips. Kirk, welcome Sandy to the show. Thanks so much for coming on.
Well, thank you for having me. I'm glad to be here. Wow. So I've been listening to you on the Preacher Boys podcast and thought you had a really great story, and so I wanted to come and bring you on so my listeners can hear your story as well. Mm-hmm. So tell us a little bit about your home and your church environment growing up.
Let's [00:04:00] start from the beginning here. Okay. I'm the oldest of five. My parents were divorced when I was about seven, which that was really the impact of my life, of just how it altered everything about that time in my life. Then my mother remarried and we moved in with my stepfather shortly after my father remarried, and so I was dealing with these blended families and it was just very confusing for me at the time, my parents and stepfather did not attend church.
So I, I wasn't a part of a church until I was about eight, and that's when my best friend who lived up the street invited me to go with their family, and I went with them and I went every Sunday after that, I absolutely fell in love with church. It was a place that I felt safe. I think it provided for me a place away from home that I felt comfortable and I got attention there.
I was very active even as a small child. I went to vacation Bible school, church camp, love Sunday School. I sang in a junior choir. Really, it was a just a great place for me to [00:05:00] be. When I was 13, I was baptized and then my faith really deepened and my involvement in the church became even more so, started teaching Sunday school and teaching vacation Bible school.
I started serving on committees with adults and doing more of the activities that would, , just be more in depth than just typical youth group activities. So, it's just no exaggeration to say that if the doors of the church were open, I was there and I loved it. I loved serving God. I felt that was the place for me, and everything about it was brought me joy and peace in the church.
Wow. You really, were very sincere in your faith. It was not a fake one. I hear a lot of stories of. Being brought up in the church and being made to go to church and, you just go through the motions kind of thing. But it sounds like it was the opposite for you. It was that you really believed this with all your heart.
Was that a fundamental Baptist church you were going [00:06:00] to or what? It was a church, Christ Christian Church, which is similar to the Baptist. It's an independent church. Yeah, that's the church. That was so something happened while you were serving the Lord and loving God. You met your abuser?
Yes. Shortly after I turned 16, our church hired a new youth pastor, and from the moment he arrived, he was totally different than anyone we'd ever seen before. He was very charismatic, very dynamic. His sermons were really like nothing we'd ever heard before, and people were just drawn to him. He had a personality that people found themselves wanting to be around him.
They wanted to please him. So he was very good at asking people to do things and they didn't hesitate. It, it was just a different kind of atmosphere. When he came to the church, the youth group exploded in numbers. We went from like 25 to almost 200 in a very short time. Even the [00:07:00] adult church was growing because people just came to hear him preach because he was so good at what he did.
He was 30, married with two children, but he really acted more like our age group. He dressed like we did. He. Went to our football games at school, he knew our music. So he just, he really, he was tuned into us and in return we found ourselves, all of us being willing to please him and wanna do anything we could to make the youth group and the church better.
So when people think of a profile of a child abuser, they usually think, oh, some dirty old man, that his roaming fingers or what have you, but this youth pastor sounded like, okay, he was really good looking and hip and really loved the young people. Mm-hmm. Is that typical of. Well, it's, it's typical in the sense that it's not the, dirty old man hiding in the bushes.
Most abusers [00:08:00] are people we know. They're people that we like. They're usually people that, connect with people very well, and that's what makes them so dangerous because they're not obvious with what they do, and they're very good at that. They pretend to be one of us. They pretend to care, but in reality, their goal is to find a way to take advantage of the most vulnerable in, in the group.
And so, predators are usually drawn to places where they will find vulnerable people. The gymnastics team is an example of that. The Boy Scouts, anywhere where you can, and certainly the church because we are welcoming into people who are in need. Oftentimes. Then there are many people in the church who are vulnerable to these types of men, and sometimes women.
Were there any red flags? That you should have seen or noticed when you were around this youth pastor? Well, he came with so many different ideas and different ways of doing things. And one of the things that he was doing now, this was in the [00:09:00] seventies, so cultures were changing and it was free love and kind of thing.
But he came into our church and he expected everyone to hug each other. So we were always hugging each other. And he also expected us to say how much we loved each other and that we love you and not just that I love you in Christ. He would simply walk up, give you a hug and say, I love you. Now you know, that may seem innocent, but that's a little odd for that pastor to be saying those kinds of things.
And it also blurs the lines because when you say to someone, I love you, that can be confusing to. Young teenagers and even to vulnerable adults. So, but he did that with everybody. It wasn't like he picked someone else special, but, so the hugging in the contact was kind of a red flag in the beginning.
But for me personally, I babysat for his family. His wife worked evenings. Mm-hmm. So one night after he came home, he asked me to go to his basement and listen to a song by Neil Diamond. [00:10:00] Well, it felt a little weird 'cause I'd never. I've been around a pastor that wanted to talk to me about anything but church in the Bible.
But I went to the basement. Yeah. I mean a Neil Diamond song. So I went to the basement. I know, but that's a trigger factor for me sometimes. So anyway, I went to the basement and he put this record on and I sat down on the couch and instead of sitting in a chair or another place, he came on the couch and sat very close to me.
And I remember feeling uncomfortable, but I didn't say anything. 'cause I thought, well, he is just sitting next to me. It's no big deal. But that's a red flag that I felt because it felt uncomfortable to me. And then the other times that I would babysit for him. His wife wouldn't come home till late in the evening, so he would come home around seven or eight and after the kids were in bed, instead of taking me home, he wanted me to sit and talk with him all evening.
So we'd talk about the Bible or we'd talk about church, and sometimes he'd ask me what I thought of his [00:11:00] sermon, which at age 16, I'm flattered that this man has any idea that I would have some opinion about this great sermon that he just gave. So I didn't see anything wrong with that because he's my pastor.
But had that occurred with my 30-year-old neighbor down the street, every time I went to babysit, I know I would've come home to my mother and said, okay, this is weird. Mm-hmm. Every time I babysit, this man wants to sit and talk to me all evening. I mean, what interest would I have as a teenager wanting to talk to this 30-year-old married man?
But because my pastor was who he was and he tapped into our common connection of the church and God, and again, many times he would give me books to read 'cause he wanted me to get better in my deep, in my spirituality. So I didn't see anything wrong with it because of who he was. And so I just accepted that behavior, which is another tool and technique.
They look for ways to get into you. Mm-hmm. [00:12:00] That don't seem obvious. And that was, so those were two red flags for me. Now as far as the congregation goes, I was in his office a lot by myself, but so were other kids, because he would actually call us into his office and say, I want you to come in and tell me what's going on in your life.
Talk to me about your problems. Instead of us going to him, he would encourage us to come into his office. So while that probably wasn't a good thing, no one saw it as a bad thing. It seemed normal, but he called me into his office a lot more than the other kids. And later on there were people who did say to me, there were times when I wondered why he said something to you like that, or I noticed something one time.
And so I think people notice some things, but no one thought enough of it to say, okay, there's something going on that doesn't seem right. So those were the red flags that I think in the beginning were very subtle. But they were hard to see, [00:13:00] and this is really important to distinguish these things because I was groomed by a guidance counselor in seventh grade.
Mm-hmm. But he was one of those dirty old men that, he was doing creepy stuff. Yeah. But I never would have seen myself. A pastor and he's talking about spiritual things and he's talking about God and mm-hmm. He's not talking about sex. He's not watching, you're not watching dirty movies together.
No, he's not, buying you sexy lingerie. It's, Hey, he's doing spiritual things. Mm-hmm. It's a setup. It's that grooming process you're talking about. It's pulling someone in to gain their trust, in a very di diabolical way, because he's using the church to do that. That's really scary.
That scares mm-hmm. Scares me to death. What were the first times that he did something really inappropriate that you were just like, whoa? Well, the very [00:14:00] first time, was after a youth group meeting that was held in my home. I was the song leader. He put me in a leadership position, and it was very important to him that the evening always go well and that we were to make people feel welcome.
And so at the end of the evening, I was nervous because I wanted to make sure that he thought everything went well. And he came up to me in my hallway and began telling me how great the evening was and how proud he was of me. And I was on Cloud nine. I was flattered that he felt that way. I felt good that the evening went so well.
And then he just slowly bent down and he kissed me. And it wasn't, it was a kiss, but it seemed somewhat innocent to some extent. And I, I remember thinking, I think he just kissed me. Then my next thought was, well, he's my pastor and I don't think he would be doing anything he shouldn't be doing. And it was just a quick kiss.
And he's always hugging people. And so maybe this is just his way of showing his appreciation for the evening. It was really [00:15:00] the only way in my 16-year-old mind that I could justify it because I couldn't think about this man doing anything he shouldn't be doing. And this was a person that everyone loved and thought so highly of, so how could I think he was doing something he shouldn't be doing?
So I just let it go. I didn't think anything more about it. I mean, did you have any sex ed or anything? Did you know the birds and bees? Nine. Well, yeah, I'm 16. I did. Yeah, I did. But I wasn't, I hadn't dated much. I wasn't allowed to date till I was 16, so I hadn't had any dating experience.
I had one kiss before this with a boy at camp. So I wasn't. Worldly or knowledgeable about all those things. But, and again, it was such a quick innocent type kiss. He didn't grab me, he didn't push me against the wall. I just, and again, I think for me it was okay if he's, if this is more than just a kiss, then what do I do with it?
So therefore I'm just gonna say it's [00:16:00] nothing because I don't know what else to do. Um, wow. I let it go. I let it go. But as I babysat for him, he, sometimes when I would leave, he would kiss me and sometimes he wouldn't. So, I didn't see it as a con, kind of a continual thing that he was always wanting to kiss me.
He always hugged me. But the kissing became more intense as it went along. So it, it would be another year, before he would have sex with me. And so that grooming process and kind of pushing the boundaries each time he was with me, finally ended with him having sex with me. Oh, wow.
Now, some of us listening are like an adult having sex with a child or 16-year-old. Can you unpack that a little bit more, the process of how he got to that point? I mean, that the first time you had intercourse, I mean, did he, you know, go to a hotel with you and you had a candlelight dinner, or was it in the backseat of the car?[00:17:00]
Was it an accident? It wasn't an accident. He was very deliberate and I had every intentions of having sex with me that night. I babysat, I was babysitting, I put the kids to bed, I walked down the steps. I assumed that we would go into the living room. Or the family room, sit on the couch and talk about the things we always talked about.
But instead, he stopped me at the bottom of the stairs and he took me into the living room, and immediately put me on the floor and began undressing me. Um, and wow, I froze. I, I literally froze and I kept thinking to myself, he's going to stop. He's going to stop. And that the entire time he's whispering into my ear how much he loves me, that he would never hurt me, and that he can, I can trust him.
And then he kept asking me, do you love me? Do you love me? And I, of course, I'm answering yes, because well, yes I do, because that's what I've told him for the past year. I, I, I just, I was so confused and what my real reaction was, I froze. Mm-hmm. Um, he, he sort of pushed my head under the [00:18:00] stereo. And so when he is starting to get
farther than I thought he would ever go. I blocked, I just blocked it out and I started reading the serial numbers underneath the stereo. Oh my goodness. Just to be thinking of anything else. Um, at one point he then just picked me up and took me upstairs. He literally put me on the bed, penetrated me, and that was it.
And I was horrified. I was absolutely horrified. I, I wanted to cry. I didn't know what to say. I didn't know what to do. Um, he left the room, told me to get dressed, and he would take me home. And I remember sitting on the bed and I put the bedspread around me because I was so embarrassed that I didn't have my clothes on.
Mm-hmm. Oh, wow. Um, and then I just remember thinking I just had sex. I'm no longer a virgin. I just had sex with this man and. He took me home. Now, in the [00:19:00] book, of course, I go into a little bit more detail, but Right, he took me home and just before I got outta the car, he said to me, now, you know, this is something between the two of us, you can't tell anyone.
And of course I'm thinking, who would I tell? I, I don't want anybody to know. I just did this. So, that was the first time. And then I think I, at that point I kept thinking, you know, I've had sex with him. So now I'm committed to him again. I'm at this point, I'm 17 years old. I'm still like, what do I do with this?
I don't, I don't know what to do with this. Um, and he was convincing me that he loved me. He was convincing me that he needed me in his ministry and that God, this was God's will in our lives. He threw that at me. Eventually he would say to me that we were married in God's eyes. I mean, twisting the scripture and using God as a reason that we should be together.
And so. I started to accept that. There were a couple times I went to him and told him that I couldn't do this anymore. I felt [00:20:00] guilty. He would respond in one of two ways. One, he would say to me how much he needed me, how much he loved me, and that he couldn't live without me. So that was the guilt part of it.
Or he would respond and by saying to me, you know, you're no longer a virgin. No one else is gonna want you. I'm the only one that knows how to love you, and you are committed to me, and this is gonna be the way it is. And I saw no way out. I didn't see a way out. And so the relationship continued for five years.
Wow. Five years. It went on for five years. That is a long time. And it, during that time, he became more aggressive physically. Uh, he hit me. He became sexually more deviant. It just progressed. It got worse and worse. And to a point that I finally, I was, my self-esteem was so low. I hated myself for what I'd been doing.
So I finally just accepted that this was my life. I knew [00:21:00] I'd never get married. I knew I'd never have children, and this wouldn't be over until he said it was over. This went on for five years and nobody in the church noticed it. Your parents didn't notice it. You know, people say, well, where were your parents?
Well, first of all, my parents were thrilled. I was in church. I mean, this was a time in the seventies when drugs were. Prevalent girls were, having free sex. So for them, what safer place could there be than to be in church? So, and they saw his intention toward me and his involvement with me as a good thing.
I mean, he would take me on hospital visits with him. I mean, they saw this as being positive. And they knew how much I loved being there and that it was a place that I liked to go. So they didn't see it. And many in the church didn't see it began because who suspects the pastor of such behavior.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. And especially in the seventies when this wasn't an open topic like it is now, you wouldn't have dared thought anything like that. And so [00:22:00] it's not uncommon for people in the church, to miss the signs and to ignore what they really do see, because they just can't believe that it would be something that would be happening in their church because then they'd have to do something about it.
Yes, exactly. When did it all come crumbling down? It does crumble. Eventually it does. Two elders became suspicious and followed him one night and found us together in a hotel room. And then from then on, the next month and a half was an absolute nightmare for me. Hmm. It was initially hoped that they could keep what he had done, quiet and keep it from the congregation.
Now, I have to say one thing before I forget. This wasn't his first incident of sexual misconduct. Oh. Prior to and just after he was awri, he arrived at our church. A young woman from his first church came forward and accused him of sexual misconduct. When he was [00:23:00] confronted by my elders, he didn't deny it.
He said it was true. He asked for forgiveness, that it would never happen again. It was a mistake. So within six months. That's when he was kissing me in my hallway. So this, so these elders were aware that this was the second time that there had been an incident with this man of sexual abuse and misconduct.
But in spite of that, they tried to keep it quiet in hopes of moving him to another church. And so I was told during that time where I was to sit, how I was to respond to questions. I wasn't to talk to anyone. I wasn't to tell anyone about what had happened, including my parents. And this was all in an effort to keep it quiet.
Well, that effort failed. And so it was determined that he should address the congregation. He did it in a very vague way, just simply said that he'd sinned. He'd sinned against God, and he'd sinned against his wife. And that was his confession. That was it. Two days later, he had me meet [00:24:00] him in a hotel room after that confession in front of the congregation.
Now. He was moved to the next church. He was given a going away party. There was actually a vote to maybe keep him, but the vote failed and they decided to move him to the next church. About, two weeks, three weeks later, I was called in by the elders, and this is probably the hardest part of my story for me.
Mm-hmm. I was called in by the elders and I was told that because of my behavior I was to leave the church. I was devastated. I loved that church. It was the only church I knew, and here I was being told by these two elders that I wasn't fit to worship there any longer. Mm-hmm. He could be forgiven and given a second, third chance.
I couldn't be, I was told that to leave the church. I wasn't given any counseling. I wasn't helped in any way. I was simply told to leave and I did. I left. [00:25:00] And that I told people many times, as horrific as the abuse was, having been told to leave, that church had a greater impact on me spiritually than the actual abuse did.
I don't think I ever recovered from that. It still haunts me to this day to some extent. That response of the church really devastated me. So that was the crumbling, as you called it? It came crashing down and I would, I left the church. So did that change your perception of God? What was your relationship with God this time?
Yes. You were kicked outta the church, but. Well, I felt a disconnect from God. I never blamed God. I never felt like God caused this to happen. I, in fact, I carry the blame and the shame. I felt guilty for what I had done. And so I never blamed God, but because of the relationship being tied in with God and the [00:26:00] prayers that this man would give, and then, you know, he'd give these wonderful sermons about marriage and sanctity of marriage on a Sunday morning after having sex with me the night before.
I had difficulty separating all of that, and there were so many trigger factors associated with the church and prayer that God really did. It was hard for me to have any kind of relationship with God. I did. I didn't become an atheist like a lot of victims do, and who become angry at God. I simply just.
I just put him on the back burner. I knew he existed, but I didn't have a connection with him any longer. So for 27 years, I, I never prayed. I never opened my Bible. I went to church because when I met my husband, he was a Methodist. And I thought, well, I'll go to the Methodist Church. It's a different denomination.
Mm-hmm. I'll just go on. It should be fine. It didn't work that way. I had anxiety attacks in church. I, his [00:27:00] reminders of him were constant, but I forced myself to go. I made sure that I went because I knew when we had children, I wanted them to have that church experience. But every time I walked past the minister's office, I got a knot in my stomach.
Oh yeah. It had nothing to do with that minister. But you understand that. I mean, it, but I did that for 27 years. It became my norm. I just knew that when I walked past that office, I was gonna get a knock my stomach, certain hymns. I can tell you what his favorite hymn was, and every time that was played, that's who I thought of.
I couldn't pray. It was so, I did have a deep, deep disconnect for 27 years, and I have to tell you, I missed it. I actually mourn that loss of my spiritual life, but I didn't know how to get it back. Because I'm keeping this secret. I'm still carrying guilt and shame. I couldn't forgive myself. I didn't feel worthy to be in church.
So with all of that mixed in, I just put myself on autopilot and said, [00:28:00] well, this is the way my life will be and I'll just have to accept it. It just sounds so unfair. Somebody that loves the Lord so much and served in the church and so innocent and being kicked out. Oh, but it sounded like maybe meeting your husband would've been a positive thing for you.
How did you guys meet? I actually worked at his office, so I met him there. We dated for about two years, and I just found him to be a kind, loving soul. He was very unassuming. He wasn't arrogant. He didn't, he wasn't a boastful type of person. He didn't like taking credit for things, even though he deserved it sometimes.
He was just a good hearted person, and I just, I fell in love with him immediately. I really did. I thought this was a great, great guy. I mean, I will tell you, I have said many times because before I met him, I was on a destructive path. I did not have any self-esteem. [00:29:00] I saw myself just simply as some sex object that, I was only good for that.
And so when I met him, he saved my life because he loved me for who I was and showed me that I was worthy. So I've often said to him, you saved my life, and he will respond back with you made mine, and you can't get any better than that. So meeting him was a turning point for me, but I kept a secret from him for 27 years, and I lived in fear that he'd always find out that I'd had this affair with a married man.
And I know in my heart that it wouldn't have made a difference to him. But people who've been abused never forget the words, don't ever tell. And I never forgot those words. And I never forgot what the consequences could be if I were to tell someone. Because when my elders found out, they blamed me.
And I, I couldn't bear the thought that if I were to tell him. [00:30:00] Somehow he would find fault with me, or I wondered, would he wonder why I didn't feel confident enough to tell him? Would he feel betrayed that I kept a secret? Would he see me differently sexually? All those fears that I had while unfounded were still present in my mind.
And so I never could tell him. And I had to do a lot of play acting and pretending, through our married life in the sense that the times I was having trigger factors, I had to hide them. And I know he would've been supportive, but I couldn't see that. Because while trauma affects you at the time of the abuse, it's lifelong.
It doesn't leave you. And so I lived with that for 27 years. So did you have. Intimacy issues when you were together? Was that what you're talking about? The triggering? No, I, know a lot of victims do, and that's understandable. I really didn't, because he was so different from my abuser [00:31:00] and I recognized that my abuser was emotionally violent mm-hmm.
And physically, he just wasn't loving in any sense of the word. I was simply used for sex. Mm-hmm. And I didn't have that with my husband. And so I could separate that a little bit. But I think the guilt of hiding the secret had an impact on our marriage as far as my able to be intimate with him in an emotional way.
I'm really glad to hear that. I, you are not the first person that I've heard that. The victim has hidden a secret from her husband. I passed her and a pastor's wife and her husband did not know. Mm-hmm. Children didn't know, and it was a family member that was the abuser. And I kept telling her, you've got to tell him.
Mm-hmm. You know why? It's because, and I was thinking this when I was listening to your, the other shows that you were on. I'm thinking about your children and your grandchildren. If I was abused, [00:32:00] I would be like. How do I keep my children and grandchildren from going through what I just went through, you know?
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, that's an interesting thing because most people would assume that my daughter, I would've been all over it and worried sick every time she left the house. Yeah. But I actually had the opposite, reaction because keep in mind, I didn't see myself as an abuse victim. I saw myself as someone who participated, who willingly went into this relationship and stayed in it willingly, which is not the case when you're abused.
There's the control, the manipulation, all of those things that play into keeping a victim in a relationship and they see no way out. So for me, I just assumed I got one bad apple in the whole barrel, that this didn't happen to other people and that I had an affair. But my daughter, who I knew, she would never have an affair with a married man, I just knew that.
So I. Sent her on [00:33:00] retreats. I sent her to church camp without fear because again, I'm thinking, okay, this just doesn't happen to other people and this is not something I need to be concerned about with her. However, with my granddaughters, it's totally different because now I understand what really occurred and the damage that can occur when you've been abused.
And so with my granddaughters, her mom and dad have talked to them, about good touch, bad touch. And I too have talked about to her, but I've been a little bit more probably detailed about it. Mm-hmm. And as she gets older, these men, the techniques change as you get older and they, after they go after teenage girls, so mm-hmm.
Hopefully I'll be able to help her understand, what happens when someone's grooming. I want her to understand her personal space, that if you're not comfortable when someone hugs you, it's okay. That's right. Say I, I don't want you to touch me that way. Mm-hmm. Or say if they don't feel comfortable and we put a lot on kids to do that.
'cause here [00:34:00] we're asking a child to say to an adult, no. Mm-hmm. So it's okay to go to your mother or your mom and say, can you tell so and so Uncle Jimmy or whoever it is, I don't wanna be hugged. So we need to make sure our kids understand that their personal space is their space. And if they don't want someone in that space, it's okay to say no.
I also think it's important to tell kids that good people can do bad things. Yeah. Because, as we talked about earlier, our abusers are not strangers. They're not mean people. Mm-hmm. They're usually good people. They're usually people who've given us gifts. They're people who help us. They're people who tell us how wonderful we are.
So it's hard for children, even adults, to see this individual who. Who on one side is a good individual who does a lot in the church, who's done all these wonderful things. And so we, we have to tell these kids, just because they're a good person doesn't mean they can't do bad things. And so that's kind of the message I hope to get to my granddaughters that I didn't give to my [00:35:00] daughter.
And fortunately she didn't have any issues with church or any, anybody abusing her. But I certainly did not, guide her in the right way in that sense because I just, like I said, I just assumed that I was the only one that this would ever have happened to. Well, I think, I hear a lot in the church that they don't teach sex ed because they don't want the kids to go out and have sex.
Mm-hmm. And so a lot of these kids are like ignorant as to, what is healthy and what is not proper, yeah. We need to teach 'em that our bodies or are going to respond. They were built that way. God intended us to have feelings. You know, when we are around the opposite sex, that's normal.
Mm-hmm. So we need to make sure kids understand. But there are barriers and there are boundaries that need to be taken. But you're absolutely right when we don't talk at it, then we figure it out on their own. And we could, we can all imagine when you're leaving teenagers to [00:36:00] their own devices to figure out things.
That's probably not gonna lead in a good spot. No, we have the internet now, which when we, right. When you and I were younger, we didn't have the internet. We didn't have cell phones. No. If you wanted a Playboy magazine, you had to go to that kind of a neighborhood to get something. Yes. You know?
Yes. It was a lot more difficult. Yes, absolutely. But too many parents are embarrassed to talk to their children about sex and, you know, everybody listening needs to listen. You need to find a way to talk to them about these things. And one of the techniques that I use with my daughter, just in talking about sex in general, kids don't want to hear their mom and dad talk to 'em about this.
So what I did would say, I read a magazine article about this girl who did such and such so that I put it off on something else that's, a non-entity of a person. And I'll say, or Have you ever heard of this? And of course I know she's got a little embarrassed, but I, it opened the dialogue without me coming [00:37:00] out and saying, have you heard of oral sex?
Instead, I would talk to her and say, I heard this about this. This is what kids are doing, blah, blah, blah. So you kind of have to find techniques and ways to sneak around it sometimes, but you absolutely need to talk to, because they know it's out there and they're going to experiment. That's just part of being a teenager.
Yeah, my parents chickened out. They just gave me a book to read. Same, probably the same book. I got, I forget what it was called. Where did I come from? Or something. It was a cartoon book. Mm-hmm. And I'm grateful for that. And, they just, after I finished the book, do you have any questions? Yeah, yeah.
I had a lot of, older people that were friends and I would actually go to my older. Senior citizen friends and ask them questions rather than ask my parents. Right? Yeah, yeah. It's more comfortable that way for sure. Like I said, it's not the topic that we like to talk to with our kids and our kids don't wanna hear it, but being uncomfortable is not an excuse not to do that.
And in school you get [00:38:00] the basics of the mechanics of it, but then that ends, that's all you get there as well. And that's not as helpful either. Yeah. The sixth grade menstrual cycle, health class. Yeah, exactly. That's it. They separate the girls and the boys. Yeah. We were all really embarrassed and Yes, yes.
Yeah, exactly. Great information. So let's, circle around back to, okay, you've been hiding this secret forever. Mm-hmm. And nobody knows about your past. And then one day you got triggered. So what happened that day? Well, that's the first chapter of my book, and that is one day I was driving to a golf tournament in Tennessee.
We live in Cincinnati. I was driving, my daughter was in college. She was playing in a golf tournament. I was driving down there and I was about halfway when I saw an exit sign for the town of Kingsport, Tennessee. And that is the. Town to which my [00:39:00] abuser was sent after he left our church, and it just sent me over the edge.
Mm-hmm. All of a sudden I'm thinking, I'm in the town where he lives. Am I close to his house? Am I close to the church where he's now a minister? I mean, even though it'd been 27 years, I thought he was probably still there. I didn't know, but that's what my mind was telling me. I, all of a sudden I felt his presence in the car.
I, I could smell him. I could hear him. Oh. I was, it was unbelievable to me what was happening to me. I didn't even know what was happening. I pulled to the side of the road Oh, good. And I sobbed. Yeah. I sobbed for about 20 minutes and I was just trying to figure out what was happening because anytime I had trigger factors before I could manage them, I could control them.
I kind of let them happen and then I push 'em back down. Mm-hmm. This one wasn't going back down and I was a mess. I was just an absolute mess. I was able to get through the weekend. I drove back home and all I could think about was, what am I gonna do? What am I gonna do? [00:40:00] I wanted to stop thinking about him and I couldn't.
I spent the next two weeks, really in anxiety. I, my husband would leave for work and I would just walk around the house, wring my hands, trying to figure out why I was feeling the way I was feeling. What was I gonna do with these feelings till at one point I finally decided I was gonna tell my best friend, and I was absolutely petrified to tell her because for the first time in 27 years, I was going to utter the words.
I was sexually abused by my youth pastor. And I remember thinking, he's gonna find out and I'm gonna get in trouble. I just, I was 49 years old and I'm still afraid of this man. But I did tell her, it was, it took me a long time to, to get the words out, but I did, she was very supportive. She was very kind.
She was patient as she waited for me to tell her. And so that started my journey of healing just by telling that first person. I then told two or three other of my close friends, so the four of us spent [00:41:00] many days and many hours on the screened in porch of one of my friends just letting me talk.
Mm-hmm. And being able to express what had happened to me. I wasn't ready to tell all of the story. I mean, there's parts in the book that I won't go into here because they're pretty mm-hmm. Embarrassing and some things that I did. So I wasn't ready to tell them everything, but I told them enough that it helped me start to release what had been done to me.
And so that was the first thing that I did, I think. And then the next thing I did, which was so valuable, and I encouraged victims to do it as well, I just read everything I could on clergy abuse or sexual abuse in itself. So I began to learn the terms of grooming, manipulation, gaslighting, and then I could see how he methodically used each one of those things on me to get me to do the things he got me to do, and to stay in that relationship for those five years.
And that was huge for me. So [00:42:00] it was, for the first time as I began reading, I understood that I had been abused. Now, it still took me a while to admit that I really was sexually abused because I didn't want that label. I didn't wanna be an abuse victim. And there was a part of me. We all wanna be loved.
And so there was still a part of me that I wanted to think that there was some part of him that cared about me, that this wasn't just purely about sex and that he wasn't just using me for his own gratification. And I had to get past that. I had to finally come to terms with, no, this man didn't do the no one who loves you, would do the things he did and ask the things he did of me.
So that took me a while, to finally admit, okay, this was an abusive relationship. So I told someone, educating myself, and then I had to learn to forgive myself. I had to let, I had to let go of the guilt [00:43:00] and shame because any guilt and shame belongs squarely on him. This was a man that I should have been able to trust.
It was in a place that should have been the safest place on earth for me. And he took advantage of a vulnerable teenager who had, I didn't have a major crisis in my life, but he knew my home life was an upheaval at times. He knew that I didn't see my dad very much. So he used that to against me.
And I had to forgive myself for being who I was at the time and being able to respond the way I did for the coping skills I had at the time. Sure. You can look back. I, and I think, why didn't I say this? Why didn't I do that? But I couldn't because of, of the re of the relationship he had created between us.
Mm-hmm. I had lost all power. He was in complete control of this relationship, so I had to forgive myself and that wasn't easy either. Then, and I don't know that this is something all victims should do, but I just felt this need [00:44:00] that I needed to confront him. I just felt like I couldn't move past this unless I was able to face him.
Now, I had no contact with him for 27 years. I didn't even know if he was still alive, but I hired a private investigator and he found him ministering in a church in Alabama. And so I had my investigator contact him and we set up a time and a meeting that we would meet. And I took my husband, I took my friend who was a counselor and another friend who was at the church at the time.
Um, I wanted her at this point. You told your husband at this point, I'm sorry. Yes, that's correct. I, it was probably three months after I told my friends, that I said to him I would like to meet him in his office and talked to him about something and. I was terrified. I don't know how else to say it.
I just was so afraid. Not that I needed to be, but I was. And I probably sat there for almost, [00:45:00] I would say, 40 minutes and just cried. I was able to finally get out. I'm okay, the kids are okay, and then I started crying again. He couldn't have been any more supportive, more loving. I remember looking at his face and I said I was sexually abused by my youth pastor, and he didn't.
His expression didn't change, and then I said. I was their babysitter and his face just dropped. And for the first time, I could see the pain I was feeling was reflected in his face. It was, I almost wanted to hug him to say, I'm sorry. 'cause I could see how much it hurt him to know that this had been done to me, especially as a baby.
I mean, the picture became complete for him once I said that. And so he was very supportive. I think he was worried about me confronting this man, for a couple reasons. But one, I think he was worried that I would be disappointed in his reaction, and that I would be expecting too much of this [00:46:00] person to understand what he did to me and show any kind of remorse, and that I, it would hurt me even more.
And one of my fears was that, I was afraid he wouldn't meet me. I was afraid that he was gonna say, no, I'm not gonna meet with you. And my husband said, oh, he's gonna meet with you all right? Because if he doesn't meet with you, you just tell him. Call the church secretary. We'll call every elder.
We're gonna, he, somebody's gonna hear your story if he doesn't want to hear it. So he did agree to meet with me. I went down to Alabama and the meeting took place and I said the things that I wanted to say to him. I wanted him to get what he did to me. But he didn't, he never could understand the damage.
It was almost as if, okay, I shouldn't have done it and I'm sorry I did it. Okay, now what do you want? It was, get away. You bother me? Yes. And his greatest fear as most narcissist, and I believe he was, narcissistic, but his greatest fear was that I was going to demand that he be removed from the ministry.
I mean, that's what he [00:47:00] was most concerned about, how this was going to impact him. And he should have been out of the ministry. So I went to his. Boss. I was told this, and something happened 27 years ago. He, we think he's safe. We're not worried, in spite of the fact that during the meeting he had admitted that there had been multiple occurrences of sexual misconduct throughout his ministry.
Not all teenagers, some were most were probably women. And then he said he had gone to therapy because he had been identified as a sexual addict. And I kept thinking, who, what? What world, what world? Does this make sense that a man who has been identified by a psychologist as a sex addict belongs in the ministry?
Nope. But here was this church. So I sent a letter to his 11 elders thinking, okay, somebody in this eldership is gonna see this. Is I something's wrong here. Not one responded totally [00:48:00] ignored me. 11 elders totally ignored me. Wow. No worries. So then, I decided to go to his denominational leaders, which were in Indianapolis.
And there again, while they were sympathetic to my story and apologize that it happened, they said, we're an independent church. Our churches hire and fire their own ministers. We have no control and if they choose to keep this man, we can do nothing about it. And so what, I was shut down and basically I had no place else to go.
I had pretty much. Done everything I could do. And it wasn't my place in the man that he be removed. I expected the church to be, the church was to do the right thing. Exactly. I assumed so naively that once they heard my story and once they understood the background of this man, surely someone would say, this isn't right.
But again, keep in mind he's very charismatic. He brings in [00:49:00] people, he brings in money. And to be fair, and probably I'm being a little too gracious, these men are very good at manipulating not only the victim but the congregation as well. They're very good at getting control of the congregation so that they find themselves following this man no matter what he would do.
Yeah. And that's basically what happened. There was going to be, I got a four page letter from his boss telling me that, know, I'm going to. Ruin this church if I continue on this path and that I'm going to feel all this guilt because I'm gonna be responsible for the damage that I will do to pe people's spiritual lives.
I mean that, it was an incredible, I put the letter in the book, I, because it is so incredibly, hard to believe that someone write that to a victim of abuse. Just So that was What year did that happen? 2004. Okay. So we did have. We did have the internet. Oh, yes. And this was after the Catholic, [00:50:00] church had their, exposure of sexual abuse within their church.
So yes, this was, it was out there for sure. This wasn't something that you would think, oh, I can't believe this happened. And again, he had admitted to these past instances. I mean, this wasn't someone who was saying, oh, I don't know what she's talking about. Or, oh, this is the only time it ever happened.
He had been in therapy because he was a sexual addict, So he wasn't registered as a sex offender? I guess not. And in my case, at the time of the abuse, the age of consent was 16. So I had no legal recourse because of I was either legally age of consent. Now that has been changed in Ohio.
It's now 18. It's now 18, but many states it's still 16. There are several states where the age of consent is 16. Now, the interesting about that is. His contact sexual contact with me was not considered a crime. However, if he had been my high school teacher, it would've been a crime. What, so pastors I know [00:51:00] does not make sense.
It does not make a leg of sense. No, it does not. So it, they don't consider him a teacher. They don't cons, they don't, they considered an affair. A mutual. Relationship if he'd been my teacher, that's a different story. So yeah, I had no legal recourse. And that was frustrating. But I couldn't change that.
So it was what it was. I just had to accept that he, yes, he belonged in jail. Yes, there's no doubt and should be registered as a sex offender, but I'm not so sure that even if he's registered as a sex offender, these people in Alabama and wherever he is now, would. Even take that as a concern.
Well, you know, the millennials now, they'll just, they just post stuff on Facebook and Twitter and call the evening news and they have, yes. News people at their doorstep, right. Ready to mm-hmm. Track this guy's name through the mud. Mm-hmm. But you didn't choose to do that, I guess. No, you know, I'm very careful about naming him in the sense that, part of my story is that I [00:52:00] reconnected with his wife.
She actually divorced him after they moved, because again, he committed sexual misconduct. She was 20, I think, at the time, so it wasn't a minor, but that's beside the point. This is a man in a position that, a professional who does not cross boundaries like that. So, to no one surprise, he committed sexual misconduct the third time, so she divorced him.
And part of, I guess letting go of some of the guilt that I felt, I wanted to. Connect with her to at least tell her, not that I was responsible for what happened, but how very sorry I was for her pain and suffering as well because she was part of the youth group. I mean, she was there at the church all the time.
We sang in the choir together. So it was like I had a relationship with her. Oh wow. To some extent. And of course when, we were found, when he was found out by the elders, she was upset and she of course, didn't wanna have anything to do with me, which is understandable. So I actually think I [00:53:00] also wanted to give her the opportunity to say whatever she felt she needed to say to me if she wanted to.
I mean, I didn't know what she was gonna say or react. I thought maybe she'd hang up on me. I didn't know. So I called her one day. My investigator found her phone number and gave it to me, and she couldn't have been any more gracious. I, she never blamed me. She understood as she, as the years went on, what this really was just like I did.
She's remarried. She's has a wonderful husband now. And so I visited her several times. We keep in contact. And so part of my not wanting to expose him too much is that it would be hurtful to her. And he does have children. Now. I know that, well, whatever consequences are as a result of this are all on him, but I don't feel the need to add to that.
That's not my purpose in speaking out. And so, mm-hmm. I've gone to his church leaders, I've done everything I can to get him removed from the ministry. And nothing, it's just [00:54:00] he's still, I don't know that he's still a pastor, but he still remains in good standing within that denomination to this day.
Yeah. I mean, sometimes we have to just let God. Right. Dish out the justice. It may not be in our timeline, it may not be the way that we think it should happen, but Right. He's not gonna get away with this. No. And again, I did my part. Yes. So my conscience is clear and I am able to say I did what I could do and whether or not they removed him, I certainly hope that I maybe put some doubt in some of their minds and maybe questioned their motives in keeping this man.
I don't know. But, I feel I did what I could do and I feel good about that. I feel good about that. Absolutely, you should. And what I'm really interested in is, you're trying to keep this stuff from happening to other people, so, I mean, what can we do to prevent some of this stuff? Well, it's [00:55:00] difficult again, because these men are among us as wolves in sheep's clothing, and so they're difficult to spot.
But a couple things. I think the first thing I would tell people is if something doesn't seem right. Keep your antenna up. Don't just ignore it or just don't think, oh, well that can't be true because he's the pastor. Mm-hmm. If it's behavior that you wouldn't accept in someone else, or it's something that you would question in someone else, then question it in the pastor or the choir director, whoever it is.
Don't be blinded by the person. The persona that they're presenting to you. So that's the first thing I would say is keep your antenna up. The other thing is we, and we're churches, I think are doing better about this, but you've got to have policies in place that say, no, you're not taking a 16-year-old girl on your hospital visit with you.
Yes. That's, that's not normal. That's not right. What is she doing going on a hospital visit with you in a car? And of course now we have the texting [00:56:00] and there should be absolutely no texting between a pastor, a youth minister, and anyone in the congregation. And that includes, no, don't forget the meeting for the church luncheon.
No, there should be no texting because you, it's too hidden and it's too easily moved to the next step. And that's how it starts. You know, all of the abuse when it's someone you know, it always starts with small things and subtle things. It doesn't, innocent things. Innocent things that, yeah, that, that are innocent.
But so that's why, so no texting. Yeah. So put in the policy, those places of, when you take a 10-year-old child to the bathroom, you make sure there's another adult with you. Absolutely. That's for your safety as well as for the child's safety. Mm-hmm. So I, I think we need to be aware.
And then I would also say watch for the vulnerable in your, among your church or your group. Watch for the kid that's got issues at home and is looking for a father figure. Be aware that they're going to be more susceptible to someone who's a predator and pay [00:57:00] attention to their cues and kind of keep in touch with them as well in a sense of asking questions and how they're doing and be the kind of a person that they might feel comfortable coming to if something were to happen to them because they're the ones that are gonna be most vulnerable, to a predator.
So that's kind of, an overview of what. Maybe a help to try and stop and prevent some of this. Yes, I like lots of video cameras. They're cheap now. You can put a camera, you can hide cameras all over the church facility and Yes. And I think too, talking to this about this issue to the congregation before anything happens, maybe having a person in your congregation who is the go-to person on this topic, who, who's researched what all these grooming and manipulation is so that they are even more equipped to, to notice the signs.
So you have a person who's kind of in charge of that topic and then address it to the congregation once a year and say, here's our policy and here's what we expect of our pastors and here's what we would hope you would [00:58:00] do if you notice something. So it just brings it out so that people feel like if there is something that they know is going on or something's wrong, they feel comfortable going to someone about it.
Those are all really great tips for leaders and, church members. So what, what if I am listening and I am being subjected to some of this stuff, what should I do? Well, what you need to do and what is the hardest thing to do is to tell someone. Yeah. And it's hard to do because when you're in an abusive relationship, you are being controlled by your abuser.
And the narrative is what he is directing. And so he's going to tell you, look, you can tell anybody you want. They're not gonna believe you. And he tells you that over and over again. He's also going to tell you that you are going to be in trouble if you tell anyone. And then there's that problem of you sort [00:59:00] of care about this person.
Here's someone that has been helping you, who's been your mentor, and you don't wanna get him in trouble. So with all those dynamics involved, it's very difficult for victims to come forward. But I am telling you, you don't wanna wait the 27 years that I did no. And live with this guilt and the shame and the angst and the anxiety.
First of all, it's not worth it. You're not doing anyone any favors, especially yourself, because there is help out there. But they can only help you if you're able to be able to tell someone. And believe me, I understand how difficult that is. It's not easy. Mm-hmm. But I would hope that I hearing my story and others that you will understand that there is help out there and you need to tell someone.
'cause it won't end until you tell someone. And if you need to, you go to someone that you trust. And if you need to, you go outside the church. Yes. You tell someone you know is going to listen to you. [01:00:00] Hey, I tell my listeners, you can call me anytime mm-hmm. And email me and I'm sure you'd say the same thing.
Exactly. Reach out to Sandy if mm-hmm. You need somebody to talk to. Mm-hmm. Or you don't know what is the next step I need to take here? Right. It is scary to make First step. It's very scary. Very scary. Absolutely. So then there's the rest of us, those that have not experienced clergy abuse, maybe we're members in the church, maybe we're friends or family.
What are some helpful things for us to do to support a victim? Helpful things to say, maybe there's things we shouldn't say, well, that's a yes. First, I would say anytime you're aware of a victim of clergy abuse or anybody who's been abused, whether it's clergy or not, reiterate to that victim that it was not their fault and that there was nothing they could have done, should have done that would've prevented this.
And by doing that, you are [01:01:00] telling that person they're free to speak to you. And victims need to hear it over and over again because we do blame ourselves. Children as young as five will blame themselves because they allowed someone to touch them 'cause mommy said not to. And the that guilt in that shame that victims carry, it's difficult to let go of it.
So to hear someone say to us, it's not your fault is so freeing. So that's the first thing. The second thing I would say is. Let them know that you will listen to them without judging them, and you will hear their story without being shocked that you are able to say, tell me everything you need to tell me, or Tell me as little as you wanna tell me.
Give them a comfort place to go to talk. And then I would say, and this is difficult for people who have spiritual lives or who are part of the church, be very much aware that things such as prayer and Bible reading and [01:02:00] scripture can be very triggering for those who've been abused in the church. Mm-hmm.
So things that you would find comforting like prayer. Can be a very major trigger factor for victims. And so instead of saying to a victim, I'll pray for you, or Can I pray with you? The best thing you could say would be to phrase it in such a way as to say, I understand because of what you've been through, prayer can be difficult.
And so I would like to pray for you, but I would completely understand if you don't want to pray or you won't, don't even want me to pray for you. And so you've opened up the door to say to this person, wow, I don't have to feel guilty because I can't pray. You know, when we've grown up in the church and we've been told how wonderful church and prayer and all those things are, we still carry that guilt too because we're no longer connected to God.
So to have a person on the outside. Recognize that these can be trigger factors is again, a gift. It's a [01:03:00] gift. So those things I think would be the most helpful when dealing with a person of clergy abuse. And give them time. Don't push forgiveness. Don't push trying to get them back into church. 'cause some victims will never be able to go back to church if you let them find their own pace of time and you do it without judging them.
And I know that's kind of hard sometimes for Christians and people in the church because we love the church and we find it to be such a wonderful place and we want this person back in the church. Yes. But it, it may not be the best place at that point for that victim. Such valuable advice. I That is awesome.
And again, back to like, when you're talking about the sex education, open up the dialogue, you know? Yeah. Bring it up. Bring it up before they bring it up. Again, I read in the newspaper that this girl was molested by, a gym teacher. You know that, that ha I know that happens.
And then let 'em know that if. It is, like you said, allowing that comfort to be able to [01:04:00] talk to someone. I think for me it was important to give my side of the story. No one had a clue that he was emotionally and verbally and physically abusive to me. They saw this as a little love affair and that we had this, magic little love affair.
Evil temptress. Yes, exactly. And so I wanted them to know the full story. That was important for my healing too. And they did that. And, they welcomed me back to the church. I went back, I've been back a couple times for, a youth group reunion that we had. So, and that was difficult.
But again, I thought that was necessary for me to move forward. I had to let go of my past. I had to figure out, not to forget it, but how was I going to incorporate it in my life going forward. Mm-hmm. And what that would look like, you know? Wow. This has been such an awesome time. Learned so much today. You have this really great book that I'm waiting in the mail for if the postmaster will ever get it to me.
Let me pray on you. [01:05:00] PREY. Mm-hmm. Tell them how they can get a copy of your book and how the listeners connect with you. My book is on Amazon. They can go to my website, which is a little long, but it's my name. It's www dot sandy, S-A-N-D-Y. Phillips, P-H-I-L-L-I-P-S, Kirkham, K-I-R-K-H-A-M. And I also have a Facebook page as well, under Sandy Phillips Kirkham author.
But my website, and there's a lot of valuable information there that I think victims would find helpful. So I encourage victims or anyone who really just wants to understand from a victim's perspective. 'cause that's the value in telling our stories just as it is for you to tell your story because we need to hear from the victims and how this has impacted our lives.
You know, I've said these men really steal souls. They take people from the church. It's doing the opposite of what the church should be about is to bring people in. And [01:06:00] these men are turning souls away. And it affects generation after generation. I mean, my children's church experience was one.
Me just taking them to church and their church experience would've been different had this not been done to me. And so we need to recognize that this is a generational impact. It's not just an impact on the victim. And it impacts churches as well, because when abuse happens in the church. The entire congregation finds themself angry.
They find sadness, they find confusion. It changes the dynamics of that entire congregation when yes, the pastor has committed sexual misconduct. And churches need to start responding in the appropriate way when there are issues like this in the church. Amen. Amen. That's important. And I would say the most, one of the most important things is we need to stop calling it moral failure.
We need to stop calling it a moral fall, or as one pastor called it, a sin of the heart. I mean, that sounds like a harle and romance to me. A sin of the heart. I [01:07:00] mean, really, no, we need to call it what it is. It's sexual misconduct. It's sexual abuse. This is what these men have done. It's not just a moral falling, although it is a moral falling, it's also an ethical violation.
It's a violation of their oath and. They need to be removed from the ministry. They're no longer fit to be the shepherd of the sheep because they've proven themselves to be wolfs in sheep's clothing. Wow. Amen to that. Well, this has been awesome. I so appreciate you coming onto the show and I will let you know and I get the book and have read it and I'll put a review up there on Amazon, with your book and absolutely keep in touch.
I will do that. You've been an, a delightful host and I've certainly enjoyed my time here with me. And, I do hope that it's been a help to some victims if they're listening because, like I so many times I said, I wish I'd heard someone's story when this was being done to me. 'cause then maybe I would've understood and could have had the [01:08:00] courage at that time to come forward.
Thank you so much. God bless you. Thank you. Thank you for listening to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast. If this episode has been helpful to you, please hit the subscribe button and tell a friend. You could connect with us at DSW Ministries dot org where you'll find our blog, along with our Facebook, Twitter, and our YouTube channel links.
Hope to see you next week.
 

Struggles with Self-Worth: Rosalie's Journey from Abuse to Healing Through Faith
In this episode host Diana welcomes Rosalie Janelle, host of 'The Good News' podcast, to share her powerful survivor story. Rosalie opens up about her journey from an abusive relationship to finding faith and beginning her healing process through therapy and a closer relationship with God. The discussion covers Rosalie's background, the signs of abuse, the harrowing experiences she endured, and how she was ultimately saved, both physically and spiritually. This episode aims to provide hope and encouragement to those in abusive situations, emphasizing the importance of faith, support systems, and professional help.
00:00 Introduction and Sponsor Message00:47 Welcome to the Podcast01:26 Introducing Today's Guest: Rosalie Janelle02:31 Rosalie's Background and Upbringing04:42 College Years and Faith Struggles07:21 Entering an Abusive Relationship09:40 Escalation of Abuse18:16 Struggles with Self-Worth and Infidelity19:40 A Violent Turning Point23:39 Realization and Rock Bottom24:27 The Violent Incident26:10 Aftermath and Legal Proceedings26:56 Spiritual Awakening30:39 Healing Journey35:19 Therapy and EMDR40:30 Advice for Those in Abusive Situations43:31 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
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Bio: Roselly Genao is a podcast host, spiritual coach and an operations supervisor in the emergency services industry. Roselly has been serving God faithfully since November 2019, shortly after she survived a traumatic attack on her life. Roselly’s affinity is drawing people nearer to Christ through encouragement and inspiration. She currently is the host of The Good News Podcast and is a certified emotional first aide provider. With these means she helps bring people closer to God daily in conjunction with serving God.
 
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[00:00:00] Special thanks to 7 5 3 Academy for sponsoring this episode. No matter where you are in your fitness and health journey, they've got you covered. They specialize in helping you exceed your health and fitness goals, whether that is losing body fat, gaining muscle, or nutritional coaching to match your fitness levels.
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Welcome to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast, brought to you by DSW Ministries. Your host is singer songwriter, speaker and domestic violence advocate, [00:01:00] Diana . She is passionate about helping survivors in the church heal from domestic violence and abuse and trauma. This podcast is not a substitute for professional counseling or qualified medical help.
Now here is Diana.
Hello everyone. How are you doing ? I'm glad you joined me today on my podcast. We have a survivor story today. I think you'll be really blessed by her story. Rosalie. Janelle is on the show today. And I hope that you'll listen closely to what she has to share with you. She's the host of the Good News podcast.
She's going to bring a raw and honest story of how she got into an abusive relationship and how she got out, how she found the Lord, and how she has started her healing journey. So without [00:02:00] further ado, here's Rosalie. Welcome, Rosalie Janelle to the show. Thank you so much for coming on. No problem. I'm happy to be here.
Diana, thank you for inviting me on. Now the tables are turned , you're in the guest chair today? Yes. My first time too, so I'm not used to it. I was just on her podcast, the Good News podcast. Mm-hmm. And uh, that's what podcasters do. We go on each other's shows. Yes. Amen. Absolutely. I'm happy to be here.
So tell the audience a little bit about your fine self. Yes, absolutely. So as Diana mentioned, my name is Rosalie Genow. I go by Rose, by trade. I'm a manager of an operation center. And, by night I'm a podcast host of the Good News podcast and, full-time. I'm a believer for Jesus. I love, spreading the gospel, talking to others about the gospel, and what he has done in my life.
So that's why I'm here. Awesome. So let's start from the [00:03:00] beginning. What was your family upbringing like? Were you raised in a Christian home? Oh, this question from the beginning. I wasn't, I was raised in a Catholic home. And I say that very loosely because my parents weren't practicing when I was growing up.
They mostly like practice, up until the point I was born. And then I got baptized as a baby into the Catholic. Church. But I still went to Catholic school, so we weren't practicing at home, but I went to Catholic school, so that kind of shaped, you know, gave me a little bit of foundation as I was growing up.
But weirdly enough, I still, I didn't know God and not when I was younger. So what was, your home like growing up? I mean, it was typical. I don't think that it was, abnormal. I had both my parents, I have, I'm one of three, I have two siblings and I. I don't know.
I don't, I wouldn't say it was atypical. It was a loving home. I was involved in a lot of extracurricular activities growing up in [00:04:00] school. I was, involved in, pretty much every group that you could think of. I was a good academic kid. My siblings, they did, have their children, a little on the younger side, so.
Towards like my teenage years, I was growing up in the home alone. 'Cause my siblings moved out and started their families. And at that point in time when I was a teenager, I was a little bit of a, I was trouble, I was definitely trouble. I was not making great decisions. I started dating really young.
Oh gosh. Probably younger than I should have. And, I think that really started, in my early college years, I really started to make some pretty bad decisions. So it started in my teenage years. So when you went off to college, you said that you had a collapse of your faith. What was your relationship with God like then in your life?
Yeah, when I got to college, I wasn't really practicing any kind of religion or [00:05:00] even praying to God. My life was, like I said, I started a tr a path on my life where I was making da bad decisions almost daily. Now looking back, I think it was, the lack of having a relationship with God.
But I would say that in the beginning of my college career, I had no relationship with God. I actually was very confused, because I had graduated from a Catholic, high school, and then I went to a Catholic university and I was seeking answers. So I was going to the Catholic mass, almost weekly, but it was kind of like just going through the motions of my, that was in the first year of my, of. The first semester of college and then I went to a girlfriend's church. And it was a non-denominational Christian Church, probably second semester of freshman year. And, that kind of started to change my perspective. On, God and who he was and who Jesus is because, it was so different than the Catholic church.
So, mm-hmm. It sparked us an interest, but I would [00:06:00] say not enough for me to do anything about it. Not at the time. Yeah. I can relate. I was raised Catholic. I know it means to go through the motions on the outside and nothing happening on the inside really. So you mentioned you made some bad choices in life.
Why do you think that happened? I mean, for me at the time there was definitely, I was definitely going through a lot of stuff, just on the inside because I didn't have any kind of foundation. I didn't have any, belief and a higher power at that point in time. So I kind of saw life for what it was.
It felt worthless, it felt like, so I made some pretty bad choices based off that root feeling of just feeling like, you know, there was no purpose for life. And I actually fell into depression. And during college, I was mixed up in bad relationships, through college. And then ultimately I ended up dropping out of college because.
I was just making horrible decisions. I was partying all night and all of those things stemmed from the fact that I [00:07:00] viewed life as purposeless and therefore I didn't give myself enough self-worth. Mm-hmm. So, mm-hmm. So it sounds like you were prime target for an abusive relationship that you got into.
Would you be able to talk about that? Were there any red flags beforehand? Yeah. So, let's backtrack a little bit. Mm-hmm. So, after college, I actually, was with, a man who was semi abusive. Like we, we had really toxic, arguments. There was a once or twice where there was,
physical fights between him and I. And ultimately when I left college, I walked away from that, you know? Mm-hmm. And I left college and I had to move back to Massachusetts. So I went to Seton Hall in New Jersey. And obviously after dropping out and not being able to afford living in New Jersey by myself, I was 20.
I had to come back home to Massachusetts. And so when I did come back home to Massachusetts, I kinda just walked away from that relationship in college and I thought that, I didn't [00:08:00] think anything of it, I didn't see that it was an abusive relationship, my college relationship. I didn't think that it was anything outside of the normal.
I thought I was like, oh, I'm 20 and I'm passionate. Fast forward probably. Let's see, I don't know how old I was , let's go back, let's go to 2016. Fast forward 2016. I dropped outta college in 2014 and I met a guy. He was actually a friend of a friend, so I met him through my friend and one of my closest girlfriends, honestly.
And, and he came highly recommended. She thought she knew him. So she was like, yeah, you should give him a try. You know how to try going out with him, he seems like a good person. And so I did, to your question, and this is like late 2016, we started dating and within the first three months there were certainly red flags.
I didn't see them then. Mm-hmm. Or maybe I did and I chose not to, but there was certainly a lot of, things that he didn't like about me. That [00:09:00] he ma he was vocal about from the very start, he, did not accept me for who I was. I come from a really small town, in Massachusetts. That's.
Pretty ghetto. And he, often used to refer me to me as like a statistic of that same, city because a lot of people don't, they don't make it out of that city with a college degree or anything like that. And I had dropped out and so he used that, that oh, education target on my back, like to really make me feel bad.
And that was only in the first three months. So there was definitely red flags. Did I listen? No. Yeah, I was guilty of ignoring red flags in my abusive relationship too. The relationship progresses, so when did you know the real abuse start? Mm-hmm. What kind of abuses did you endure? Yeah, like I said from the beginning, I feel like even three months in, even though, he wasn't physically, or even at that point, maybe emotionally abusive, but he [00:10:00] was definitely verbally abusive in the way he spoke to me.
So I would say as early as those, it took me a really long time to actually understand that was abuse too. So as early as three months in, he was degrading me with words. And oftentimes, I would cry myself to sleep because I didn't know, I believed what he was saying, because I had, such a low self-esteem, such a self, a low self-worth.
I believed everything that he said because I was like, well, it must be true. It's silly. But, i'm sorry, I kind of backtracked very common thought process that we deserve being treated this way. That's very common. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But one thing led to another and, eventually the relationship became, emotionally abusive.
Like he was very manipulative. He wanted to kind of just. Make every decision for me. And I didn't know he was doing it. He would do it. He was very persuasive. He was very charming. And I actually, when I started [00:11:00] dating him, I started my walk with God. Mm-hmm. And I didn't know that he would be the one thing to deter it because I thought he was a Christian.
I thought that he was in the church too. So we would go to church together. Oh, we had the whole deal together. Like it was just a front, and because I was like, oh, well he's, you know, obviously, I didn't marry him, but I also, the fact that I grew up in a Dominican household also played a part to it.
I'm sorry if I'm jumping all over the place. No, you're fine. But, yeah, it played a role into the way I viewed men in my life because I thought that they always needed to be the, I'm Dominican, that culture's very, you know, the man is the head of the household, very machista, very, they gotta be the strong leader.
And, so because I grew up in that setting, or with those examples, I would say. Not setting because my father was very different. But I saw that all around in the rest of my family. I definitely felt like I needed to have that in my life and I needed to follow [00:12:00] his lead, even though the lead was horrible.
And so, I was like, all right, he's leading me anyways. We're going to church together. We're strengthening our faith together. This can't be that bad. That's what I used to tell myself. And there was a couple times that our verbal arguments got physical where he would pin me down.
At times he would push me. It was a number of things. I tell myself all the time, I'm not even sure that I remember every single incident because there were so many at this point. And so ultimately. Towards the end of the relationship, he tried to kill me and oh, that's when I had to leave.
Well, I didn't have an option. So it, it was a lot of physical, I'm sorry, a lot of verbal. And then ultimately physical abuse. So he was definitely faking it with the church stuff. And yeah, I mean, I don't, I didn't, I don't know. I would say definitely faking it, but also probably struggling on his own, and you mentioned your [00:13:00] background, but. I didn't even have that background of being Dominican or Spanish, but that seems to be a prevalent mindset in American culture, that the man is in charge and you're supposed to do what you're told and put up with it. Yeah, and that's why we don't fight back is because of the society that we are raised in, and then some of us have.
An empathetic personality that results in wanting us to help people or maybe fix people. Was that true with you? Oh yeah. Absolutely. Especially by nature. I'm just like a, I'm a helper by nature. I want to help improve anything. I'm a manager, that's what I do. So I, with, when it came to my ex there was, he definitely had some, things internally going on that I thought.
I was the answer to that I thought that I could help him with. There was definitely some anger stuff, and some unresolved trauma, so I was like, well. I'm pretty good at this stuff because I didn't, [00:14:00] at that point in my life, I hadn't really gone through much trauma. But I worked in the behavioral health field, so I'm like, I can help, I also love him so I can help.
Mm-hmm. So each time that we had an issue I would focus on fixing either myself or trying to plead with him, see my side if I really thought that I was true, but oftentimes I was trying to fix him or I to be. Perfect for each other. For lack of better words. And you mentioned the word love. You loved him.
What was your definition of love then? Yes. Well, I definitely, certainly did not know what love was then. Because, and I will say like it has a direct co correlation with the fact that I didn't know Jesus yet. Because I don't truly believe you can experience love without knowing Jesus. My definition of love back then was very, temporal. It was very, I don't even know what's the best word to explain it, but it was shallow. It was just based off of [00:15:00] appearances and what, what you can do for me and what I can do for you type of love. So not at all anything like what the love of God offers us. And I can say that now. I definitely know that I didn't know Jesus then.
So I didn't know how to love or be properly loved. You were how old again? Whew. I didn't think about that. Let's see. Early in the twenties, right? Yeah. Yeah. I was 20, 24, 25, 24 when I started dating him. And then 20, oh gosh, I don't know. Yeah, I'm 27 now, so that was two years ago. So I was about like 22 to 26 when I was dating him, or 25.
I think all the young people, including myself, when I was in my twenties, I was very gullible and innocent and trusting and yeah, I didn't know what love was and my mother made it very clear that, oh, well you don't, you have no clue what love is [00:16:00] and no mom, I, maybe I don't, but I'm gonna find out. And. You learn as you get older.
You learn by experience. You learn when you meet Jesus, you learn how he loved us and how we are to love others. So, don't be too hard on yourself. Right? Yeah, yeah. No, absolutely. I hear you. Yeah. No, my mom said the same thing growing up. You don't know. I love is, I think we often hear that and we don't actually understand what it is until we either lack, real love or we experience it for the first time.
Yeah, because our parents, they see the people that we date and they're like, oh no, not for my kid. That's not a good choice for you, but we don't listen. Yeah. It actually, it's so funny you mentioned that it actually was different with my ex in that accord because my entire family actually loved him.
Really? My entire family actually. Did not. Well, for two reasons. I was never vocal about the abuse. I never actually told everybody the real [00:17:00] truth about what was going on behind closed doors. So that was the first thing. And like I said earlier, he was charming. He would, he was persuasive. He got along with just about everybody.
And when I tell you, like most of my family, I'm probably to this day, they still say the same thing. They said, we were shocked. We were surprised 'cause they did not see it coming. Well. Mm-hmm. I think my dad and my stepmother didn't really know the extent of the abuse. They saw some things. And they didn't like him, but they would never interfere out of respect for me.
My mother and my sister were a little more vocal about, I don't like him. He, he pushes you around, he bosses you around. He's, he is arrogant and he is rude and. All those things, but mm-hmm. No, I didn't, I didn't listen. So at this point in your relationship you suffered a lot up to this point.
Mm-hmm. Would you say that you were an angel at that time? No, I [00:18:00] definitely would not say that. And, before it was really difficult for me to explain this portion of my story because I couldn't do it without guilt or shame because that's what the enemy tries to, ki tries to keep us in shame and secrecy.
Mm-hmm. But I mean, in my relationship with my ex, I have, I, I became unfaithful and little. Did I know then because I didn't understand then why I was seeking other men, and I was see, , seeking attention from other guys. It all ties to, for me, it all ties to the fact that I, I had a really low self-esteem and my self-worth was probably on the ground again.
I didn't know God, I didn't really have a relationship with him. I, like I was saying I was going to church, but I was just going through the motions 'cause it's what I used to do and I was going to a Christian Church at this time. But it's just based on the foundation that I had from growing up in that Catholic church and I was, I just knew to go through the motions.
I didn't really understand that I needed [00:19:00] to practice a relationship with God. So even though I was going to church while I was in this relationship, I didn't know God enough to know the love that he had for me and therefore make better decisions. So I saw other men, I saw, attention from particularly this one other guy, and I got really involved with him while I was with my ex.
And ultimately the, that was something that made the abuse worse. Mm-hmm. Because my ex found out about it, and he, there was two occasions where on one occasion, the first time that he found out about the other guy, it was, oh, it was tough. He dragged me outta my bed. I was sleeping and he, Ooh.
Just woke me up and dragged me outta the bed because he saw the text messages from the other guy. And I remember in that morning, so me and my ex used to live with a roommate at that time. And I remember in that morning, my, [00:20:00] our roommate, our third roommate, she was at her boyfriend's house.
Mm-hmm. So I, but I completely forgot. And when. He dragged me outta bed and I saw how violent he was about to get with me. He had pinned me down to the ground. I started to yell. I started to, well, I tried to start to yell her name out. And then a, like a voice was like, no one's here. In my head, oh, and I felt so abandoned, Diana.
Oh, I felt so alone. I was like, oh my goodness, I'm alone. No one's going to know what happened to me if this man does something to me today. And so, the rest of that day was. Horrifying. He got, he was violent, but then also he was violent towards himself. He tried to he tried to hold me hostage by basically selling.
Me that he was gonna kill himself. He took a, a knife and mm-hmm. And we were in the kitchen for over an hour [00:21:00] and I was trying to try and deescalate the situation. I must have called his, well his family's not, wasn't in Massachusetts at the time. So they were far. So I, I must have called his sister, his cousin, like everybody trying to get them on the phone too, just.
Reason with him. 'cause he wouldn't reason with me at that point in time. And he was also scared. He was scared that he knew, like he had, abused me before and that I was kind of at that breaking point, he's like, I think you're gonna turn me in because it got so bad. And I. At the end of the day, his brother who lived at State over got there.
He probably drove down like an hour, which is unheard of. Mm-hmm. And. He deescalated the situation he got, he got him out of the house. He moved everything out that day. So I left to my sister's house so that he can get everything out. And I ultimately went to the police station.
I got a restraining order that [00:22:00] day, but that wasn't the end, a for me, I couldn't. I don't know. My definition of love was messed up back then, so I thought that I was still in love with him. So it wasn't even like four days or five days later that I went back to the courthouse and I dropped a restraining order so that I could be with him again, because I thought that, it was a mistake and he was, and I was guilt, I was feeling so guilty because of my my unfaithfulness. So I was like, I felt like I hurt him. I didn't even, I disregarded all the, everything that he did to me. And I just was like, well, I hurt him. I have to go back and help him and want to tend to his feelings.
'cause, he felt betrayed and not loved by me at the time. So. It just blows my mind. It just yeah. That you would go back to fix his problems. Which I think, and I'm sure you agree with me, this just makes it worse. [00:23:00] You going back after all of that. Because you felt guilty, which was misplaced guilt.
Okay. That's, it's great that you acknowledged that you made a mistake, but, that doesn't cancel out his abusive behavior. Absolutely. And I thought it did. That's it. I love the word that you used, canceled. For me, that's what I thought it was like, all right, well I did this.
So he did that. And, and of course, like I said, going back to what I said earlier, I believed all the things that he told me about me. Mm-hmm. I believed that I, that's what I deserved. And so I didn't see it as, I didn't view it as an issue or a problem. Now, when did you finally come to your senses and say, I've had enough.
I'm at rock bottom. I've got to get out of this relationship. I mean, for good. Yeah. It didn't come by my own, choice. And I say that because a lot of people think that, you always just get to walk out of a [00:24:00] abusive a relationship or you just choose to go, and that's not the case.
I went back to him and ultimately we had a lot of issues up until the last time that I saw him. And I was still being unfaithful. I was still seeking attention from other men. And so again, at this point, he's not trusting of me. He's still looking through my phone. He's following me at this point to everywhere that I go.
And, on the last. Occasion, we went to a party and we went back to his house after the party and we were both drunk. And he went through my phone and he saw a text message from the other guy. And basically that's when he, that's the night that he tried to kill me. He, it was the most violent he had been with me, throwing me around the room, really just using me.
As a punching bag. Mm-hmm. And, up until the point where he tried to strangle me and I don't really know how I got out of the str out of his choke [00:25:00] hold. But I did. And then ultimately I ran outside after that and the neighbors were there and the neighbors, they didn't even want to get involved.
We lived in an apartment building in a three story apartment building, and I didn't knock on anybody's door because I was afraid. I just didn't know what to do. He took my phone, well he threw my phone out the window. It was just a bad situation, you know? And I was just trying to run out of the building.
And when I was trying to run out of the building, there was neighbors coming inside the building. Mm-hmm. And they saw both of us. They saw that his shirt was ripped, they saw me, I had blood, I had, I was probably looking all crazy. Wow. And they. Like, well, we don't really wanna get involved in this.
This seems like a, I don't know, I don't even know the words that they use. But instead of calling the police they asked him, they got involved. They said, oh, can you just give her phone back? That's basically what they told him. And I'm like, no, I need you guys to call 9 1 1 because he tried to kill me.
He's not going to call [00:26:00] 9 1 1. And so ultimately after some push and pull, whatever. They gave me their phone. I called nine one one. And the ambulance showed up. The police showed up and they detained him. And so back to the question that you asked, when did I choose to leave?
Or when did I have enough after this incident? The fact that the Lord delivered me from death because mm-hmm. I don't know how I got out of his choke. He was much stronger than me. He went, we went to through the court, he went to jail. We did all of that. I didn't really have a choice.
The relationship had to be over at that point. Mm-hmm. It didn't feel like that for me. Even for months after that. It didn't feel like I, I wanted to leave. And that's the crazy part. That's the part that I was so deep into his manipulation, into his tricks, that even at that point, I felt like I still owed him something.
It wasn't until maybe about six [00:27:00] months later that I gave, when I truly gave my life to Christ that I knew. That everything that I had felt about guilt and everything that he had done to me, that it was all wrong. It was so wrong. And I, that's when I knew, but it, it didn't happen immediately. Even I was at the point of death and in the hospital waking up all that.
It wasn't the point where I said I had enough. I didn't have a choice at that point to be with him because of the situation, but I would say when I found Jesus was when I really knew that. I deserve so much more. It sounds like you had a lot of codependency going on there. Mm-hmm. And that is a real stronghold.
That's almost like brainwashing from a cult. Mm-hmm. If somebody trying to kill you and you're in the hospital and you don't think that, well, I need to get out of this relationship. And everybody would talk to me and everybody would ask me like, what do you wanna [00:28:00] do? I had to sit through court proceedings where he was present and.
I was going, I've always been a person who has like, pretty strong morale, even though I didn't mm-hmm. Like I said, like I grew up knowing right from wrong. Mm-hmm. And I knew at the time that the right thing to do was to continue going to court, cooperate so that he would be sentenced and everything go through the trial so that he wouldn't do this to other women.
Mm-hmm. I knew that was the right thing to do. I didn't wanna do it though. I didn't wanna be a part of that. I didn't wanna be a part of something that could con particularly like, follow him around for the rest of his life. It was really sick in the beginning. But ultimately I did the right thing, and I look back and I know that it was the correct thing.
Because you just have to do it because you just never know if somebody like that is gonna change. You can pray. But you don't know and you [00:29:00] don't want anyone else to fall into that trap. Just looking back at your story, it looks like the Lord intervened in your life. Maybe that was an angel that he sent to get you outta that choke hold.
Maybe it was him that put your abuser in jail so you could get out. Did you have anybody else that was on your side or anybody else who helped you? Absolutely. When my family, became aware of what happened because I called them that night and, everybody showed up at the hospital. My mom was there, my aunt, my sister, they all came to the hospital.
They just didn't know. They didn't, my sister had guessed a couple things 'cause she had seen him follow me. She had noticed him in the last month or two before that. So she had known something was up, but she didn't know that it was this bad. And, so she was right there. They all of them were right there, but had they known, they, I think they would've been there, before and they would've tried to get me out before.
But like I [00:30:00] said, because of my own doing and my own wishes of wanting to be there, I just stayed. I. Without telling them. But my family was, they were really supportive after and during the court and the trials and everything, they were very supportive. And there was one person in particular who was probably key in getting me to go back to the church.
Mm-hmm. And, yeah, I consider him an older brother and he, I grew up with around him and he had a church. He has a church in Massachusetts. Well. He goes to a church in Massachusetts and he always invited me. And so, that really was what helped me turn my life around at that point. So tell us
how you, found the Lord Jesus as your savior For real now? Yeah. Yeah, for real. And I always tell people, I'm like, I think I got saved in thousand 15, but, and I used to say that before, but now I know that, he really saved me in 2019, not only because of what he delivered me from, but because I knew, I felt it.
I [00:31:00] felt his love. I felt. Everything I felt redeemed. So I would say like June of 2019, I, which was only about six months after the incident and I. Was after, after the incident, I was going to church still. I was, like I said, I, there was not really a period of time that I wasn't going to church. I was always going to church, but it was always a through the motions kind of deal, and I never really prayed and I never really, I didn't even read the word I, the only word that I got was on Sundays.
And mm-hmm. Then ultimately on, in June of 2019, I said. Something's gotta change because I knew mm-hmm. That everything that I had experienced up until that point and all of my feelings of like still wanting to be with my ex even after everything were, so, they were, they came from a place, an evil place, right?
Because I just knew that the Lord wouldn't send me back to that type of relationship. So I. [00:32:00] I started being intentional. I started just like saying, okay, God. I would sit with him in the morning and just say, God, I need you to show me why I'm here. And I kept on asking that question, why I am here and why I'm here.
And he didn't answer that question. He answered a DA different question that I didn't even know that I had in my heart. He answered like the questions about. My feeling, my not feeling abandoned. Sorry, how do I say this? He answered my questions about me. Being loved by him. Mm-hmm. And I didn't know I had those questions because I was just like, well, I just, I'm a fixer by nature, so I just wanted to fix all the, I was like, I need my pur, I need my purpose and I need to walk into it.
That's it. Yeah. That's what I wanted to do. And I was like, I need to learn how to do this. But by spending time with him daily. And really just getting into his word and learning his character, I learned his love. I learned that he loved me beyond every single thing that I had done. And I was able to walk out of the shame and [00:33:00] fear and guilt that I had wa I had walked in for so long because I, at that point I felt like I had made too many.
Bad decisions, too many, just things that I was ashamed of. But when I was spending that time with him, he was like, I don't care about all that. He's like, I love you the way you are. I made you and I'm going to love you no matter what. And slowly but surely, he started to reveal his character to me.
He started to reveal my purpose on this earth. And that's when I say that, I really got saved, but there was no like, aha moment. There was no, none of that. It was just like I, I had to start being intentional about it. I had to, if I wanted to see a change, I knew that something different, I had to do something different.
Yeah. The Lord's been pursuing you your whole life. He was just waiting for you to Absolutely. Turn around and see him. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. So I say that healing is always a journey. There is no I've arrived [00:34:00] or I'm healed a hundred percent. It's a journey throughout our life. How did you start the healing process and what steps did you take besides church?
I mean, I really changed my decisions. In my social life I reduced the amount that I was drinking. I used to drink a lot of alcohol that mm-hmm. I remember there was times that I drank alcohol to the point of blackout. So I reduced the amount of drinking I was doing. I reduced I increased the amount of times that I was in church a week.
I was in church twice or three times a week rather than just on Sundays. And then. I told my family, I'm making a decision to make church a priority in my life. God, the priority, not just not the church, God, a priority in my life. So ev everything that did not serve that purpose, I tried to just remove out of it.
I was in a job that I was unhappy, so I left it. I pursued a job that was. Quiet it, it just allowed me to take a step back from management. It wasn't in the limelight. I [00:35:00] didn't have a lot of pressure, so I could spend a lot of time with God. And then most important, next to God, I took, I started therapy.
I did therapy. Mm-hmm. And I did a trauma specific therapy. I did EMDR and I. But that's the second thing next to Jesus that changed my life. So explain what is EMDR for those that don't know what that is? Yeah, I haven't had to explain this in a while, but I'll try my best. It's called, lemme see if I can get this right.
It's called eye movement. Desensitizing reprocessing, I think it is. Yes. And it's a yes. I tried. And it's a type of therapy that specifics on specifies on like if you have had childhood trauma or any kind of trauma really, and you use physical movements like tapping or eye movements to walk you through the memories and reprocess those memories and desensitize them.
The emotions that are attached to it. So I [00:36:00] did that with the entire experience that I went through with my ex up until the point where he tried to kill me. And a lot of stuff was brought up during that during that year that I did therapy. It was very intense. It was hard work.
It is hard, but I believed the Lord. For bringing me to that therapist because it was a very godsend, like it was a referral. And I knew that if I saw it through that on the other side, I was gonna come out the person that the Lord wanted me to come out. And that's exactly what happened. So I tell the listeners that are, there are many different tools for healing.
Not everybody chooses the same tool. It's whatever's. Helpful for them and their situation. So you thought that therapist and that technique was really helpful for you, it sounds like. Yeah, because something that I noticed like I said, a lot of. Yes. I wasn't an abusive relationship, but there was some decision making in [00:37:00] my past choices that obviously weren't rooted out of that abusive relationship that came out of a different place.
And I had done talk that I, I mentioned I was depressed in 2014 and when, mm-hmm. When I left college, I had. Done talk therapy. I had done all of that and it didn't work. CBT kind of stuff. And so I was like, I need something that's gonna be specific. Look at me just being a fixer and a planner, right?
I was like, I need something that's gonna be specific and it's going to target this trauma that I just went through and help me come out a better person. And EMDR is truly if you are, that, if you're looking for results, that's what. You'll get if you apply yourself. I like what you said about there were issues that you had that were not related to the abuse.
A lot of people, they wanna ignore those things and blame. Mm-hmm. Everything on the abuse. Well, we are complex creatures, aren't we? Absolutely. Oh. It's not always black and white, cut and dry. There are, aspects [00:38:00] of our personalities, our upbringing that are separate from the abuse that also need to be.
Dealt with and healed. Yeah, too. So I'm glad you mentioned that 'cause that is important. But you're admitting that yes, you found the Lord and you're on your journey of healing, but it wasn't all unicorns and rainbows. There were some struggles and that we are going to struggle. Absolutely. Or we just keep going forward, right?
Absolutely. It was not a, walk in the park after I made that decision. And especially for me, who was somebody who was battling, I was battling, just sexual temptation, lust desiring to just be in the world, drink alcohol, those things, those were not easy decisions to make.
But. I had the strength of the Lord because I was with him and he was with me. Amen. And so I did it. Yeah. But it was not easy because there was, and especially I'm still young. I'm, I was what, 25 when I started making that, those choices. Mm-hmm. To turn to the Lord and. It's [00:39:00] just, it goes against everything that a natural 25-year-old wants.
Yes. And you're being honest here, and I'm sure the listeners appreciate that you're being real with us. Yeah, absolutely. You're not pretending that, everything is hunky dory and you're perfect. No, absolutely not. So what is your relationship with God like right now? I think it's awesome.
He's my best friend. I talk to him daily. I go to church. I'm involved in my church. I'm a spiritual coach. I have the good news podcast. I don't know. I don't find anything more gratifying than using every aspect of my life to glorify God and to glorify his holy name. And that's what I do every single day.
I try at least. Amen. You're definitely different. The new rose looks different than the old rose. Oh my gosh, yes. And I laugh because this is something that. I am still experiencing with people that know me, that have known [00:40:00] me for many years. They're like, you're different now. Mm-hmm. And I get this so often now within my family, friends, they're like, oh, the old Rose wouldn't do this.
Or the old, or the old rose was you. I get this a lot was fun. And I'm like, your definition of fun and my definition of fun now is completely different because I no longer want the things that the world has to offer. Yep. The things I used to do, I don't do them anymore. There's a song I put away My child.
Just things. Yes. We have a lot of listeners who are listening to your powerful story today, and they're in an abusive situation right now. What advice would you give them right now? Oh, this is hard. I think I, I have so many. We still got 10 more minutes left on. Okay. So I got it. Well, if you don't know, God, that's my first piece of advice is to get to know him.
I don't think that I could have gotten out [00:41:00] of my situation without him. I know that. I know that, like I said, my hand was forced because I. Was at the hospital and he was in jail. And it was no other choice, but I think that was God. God really delivered me from death and deliver, delivered me from that situation to get me to the place that I am now.
So if you don't know God, it's so important that you have a relationship with him because he's gonna guide you the best. And secondly, trust somebody. Trust any someone in your life and talk to them about it. I didn't. And it made me feel so alone. It made me feel abandoned. Mm-hmm. And I know now that I have a.
Army of people who love me and will, go to war for me. And I didn't think that, you think that oftentimes because of the choices that you make and ultimately for me, like, I thought all of my decisions was what warranted that abuse. So we get to a place where we don't wanna reach out for help because we're like, people are gonna look at me and say well, you [00:42:00] did that to yourself, but that's not.
I learned that wasn't true. That the people that are there for you, that love you will help you out of it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I tell my listeners all the time, I'm available to help people. I'll help. I'll help you any way I can, and I'm sure that you would say the same thing. Absolutely.
Yeah. You would help anybody that reached out to you for help. Yes. I'm always happy to be an a listening ear. I literally, like I said, I'm a spiritual coach, so my phone is on twenty four seven. I answer calls, texts, voice notes, whatever. Yes. Awesome. Rose has her good news podcast.
Yes. So you can hear her putting me in the hot seat for a change. And so you can listen to that on her show. How can the listeners connect with you? Absolutely. I am on, well, the Good News podcast, you could go to ww dot the good news podcast.org. You could find it on [00:43:00] iTunes and Spotify, but I'm also on Facebook, Instagram, and I'll have all that stuff in the show notes for everybody.
Mm-hmm. Was there anything we left out that you wanted to tell the good folks listening? No, other than just thank you for having me. This has been awesome, and I just hope my prayer is that this, episode blesses somebody and gives them the strength and the courage to, to do what I, to do what I didn't get to do, leave.
So, amen. Mm-hmm. Amen. Yes. This has been great. I've enjoyed listening to you tell your story again, and how the Lord's brought you to where you're at now. Thank you. God bless you. God bless you too. And all your listeners, wow, wasn't she great folks? It's an amazing story. So you be sure to reach out to Rosalie and listen to her podcast.
I hope this encouraged you. It [00:44:00] sure encouraged me. So thank you so much everybody for tuning in today. We're going to see you next week. God bless you everybody. Thank you for listening to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast. If this episode has been helpful to you, please hit the subscribe button and tell a friend.
You could connect with us at DSW Ministries dot org where you'll find our blog, along with our Facebook, Twitter, and our YouTube channel links. Hope to see you next week.

Diana revisits a former interview with the late Dave Ebert, who went to be with Jesus in July 2024. His wife, Bobbie Ebert, joins the conversation to discuss their unique ministry. The couple uses improv comedy as a tool to help survivors of sex trafficking rediscover their voice, improve communication, and build confidence. Bobby shares her personal story of overcoming abuse and finding faith, while Dave discusses their journey into full-time ministry and their goal of creating a residential facility to support survivors. The episode also touches on the importance of laughter and joy in the healing process and provides details on how listeners can support their mission.
00:00 Introduction: Comedy and Sex Trafficking?00:23 Sponsor Message: 7 5 3 Academy01:11 Welcome to The Wounds of the Faithful Podcast01:42 Introducing Dave and Bobby Ebert02:12 The Power of Improv Comedy in Healing04:48 Dave's Ministry Journey07:50 Bobby's Testimony and Healing Journey15:38 How Dave and Bobby Met24:16 A Surprise Proposal25:29 The Significance of the Ring26:07 Life After Marriage27:11 Transition to Full-Time Ministry28:11 Using Comedy to Heal Trauma29:24 The Missionary Journey32:16 Fundraising and Support32:48 Future Plans and Goals35:06 The Power of Laughter41:17 Final Thoughts and Call to Action
The website is still up after his passing. Bobbie may be keeping the ministry going in his place.
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Dave and Bobbie Ebert
[00:00:00] What does comedy and sex trafficking have to do with each other? It's not what you think. We have my guest, Dave Ebert on the show again from the first season of the show to talk to us about his ministry once again. So find out the answer to my question next on The Wounds of the Faithful podcast.
Special thanks to 7 5 3 Academy for sponsoring this episode. No matter where you are in your fitness and health journey, they've got you covered. They specialize in helping you exceed your health and fitness goals, whether that is losing body fat, gaining muscle, or nutritional coaching to match your fitness levels.
They do it all with a written guarantee for results so you don't waste time and money on a program that doesn't exceed your goals. There are martial arts programs. Specialize in anti-bullying programs for kids to combat proven Filipino martial arts. They [00:01:00] take a holistic, fun, and innovative approach that simply works.
Sign up for your free class now. It's 7 5 3 academy.com. Find the link in the show notes.
Welcome to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast, brought to you by DSW Ministries. Your host is singer songwriter, speaker and domestic violence advocate, Diana . She is passionate about helping survivors in the church heal from domestic violence and abuse and trauma. This podcast is not a substitute for professional counseling or qualified medical help.
Now here is Diana.
Hello friends. Welcome back to the podcast. I'm so glad to be here with you. We have a great show for you.
More Dave Ebert. If you didn't hear Dave's first interview, please go back and listen to it. It was excellent. He told his personal [00:02:00] story and then how he started his ministry.
He's gonna bring his wife tonight because they're doing this together. So you wanted to get the answer to the question that I posed in the beginning.
The power of improv comedy in healing and growth. Reverends Dave and Bobby Ebert are on a unique mission to minister to survivors of sex trafficking using the power of improv comedy. With their help survivors find their voice, tap into their creativity, improve communication, and rediscover confidence as US missionaries.
They use their unique calling to help those in need and bring light to the darkest of situations.
So there areas of focus on their webpage here. Use comedy to break down walls and find the good soil for the seeds of God's word to be [00:03:00] planted. Rebuild confidence through fun, creative games and challenges. So these survivors are better prepared to reenter society. Provide a needed respite from the challenges of healing and recovery by creating a safe, fun, and laughter rich environment.
Demonstrate the love of the father and share the redeeming power of Christ to encourage forgiveness of those who inflicted the unimaginable trauma. So I think you're gonna really enjoy Dave and Bobby. I mean, what, what could go wrong with comedians, right? I know that you're going to be blessed with their stories and their vision to help sex Traffick victims to heal.
So without delay. Here's my conversation with Dave and Bobby Ebert. Please welcome back to the [00:04:00] show, Dave Ebert, and we also have his wife Bobby, on the show with us tonight. Welcome both of you guys. Thank you, Diana, for having us back or having me back. And then first time guest, long time listener. Bobby, thanks for having us.
This is gonna be great having, uh, comedians on the show again, and you're on episode 12 of season one. So I definitely wanna see what you've been up to since then and you have some updates for us today.
Yeah, absolutely. Did you want us to start? There's, there's a lot to cover. Yeah. Just remind the folks what you do, and then I'll have Bobby tell the folks a little bit about herself and what role she plays in the ministry you have there.
Awesome. So for the last, decade, I've, run an improv ministry based here in Chicago where we sp spring the, light of Christ into various rooms using comedy to bring people together.
[00:05:00] Most of our shows have been either ministry to the homeless or it's been fundraisers where we've raised funds for everything from animal care shelters to people who lost part of their home in a fire. To camps for foster kids, and it's all about bringing people together and uniting them in laughter.
'cause I truly believe that laughter is a gift from God because he knew that things would get stressful and science bears out that laughter is such a stress reliever, such a healthy benefit for the body that there's no way that happened by accident. God designed laughter as a gift to help us, kind of deal with, the things that are stressful and help us forget the things that really aren't our burdens to carry.
And part of that ministry included for the last four and a half years have been working at Salt and Light Coalition in Chicago, working with survivors of sex trafficking, using improv as a way to kind of break down the walls that they've had to put up to just to survive because mm-hmm. Frankly, they've [00:06:00] been through hell on earth.
And to survive you've gotta develop some calluses and around their heart, around in inside, there's just so many calluses and walls that are up and the gift of laughter kind of unlocks that and allows them to really advance in their healing. Mm-hmm. I'm such a big supporter of what you do, Dave, and, um, when you talk about.
Oh, God created humor. I, I really wished in scripture there was more of like Jesus laughing or Jesus telling jokes, don't you? Yeah, I would think that the human experience would tell you that you get 13 men just camping out, walking the water in wilderness. They're gonna crack some jokes. They're gonna make some funny things like James and John teased Peter, oh, help me Lord, I'm drowning.
Help me. And he would fire back, Hey, at least I got out of the boat. And the whole, the verse where, Jesus is talking about is easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle. To me, that's. [00:07:00] That could be taken as a sarcastic moment, like just Jesus in front of everybody, just like making this comment, which is so ludicrous.
It could easily be interpreted as being of a funny comment. Like, I mean, camel obviously can't pass through a needle. So I think that there are moments you can find in scripture that, that are funny. It wasn't his focus. Mm-hmm. But. Proverbs 17:22 says, Lightheart is like good medicine. Some translations say laughter is like good medicine.
So I think mm-hmm. If it's covered at least once, then we can stick to it. 'cause the Bible is true from front to back. But yeah, it would be kind of fun to hear like open night in Jerusalem, open mike night. Yeah. That's awesome.
So Bobby, why don't you tell the folks about your background and how you met the Lord maybe, and how you met Dave.
Yeah, so [00:08:00] I am Bobby Ebert, Dave's wife. We've been married for eight years and. My testimony starts in my childhood is through a series of abuse growing up all the way from junior high all the way through high school. Um, it became pretty serious. The police ended up being, getting involved and just a wide variety of things that happened with.
All of that and being severe trauma, the Lord revealed to me in a vision, my sinful nature. And so how that happened was I was in a counseling session at a crisis center, and it was in the middle of that crisis center session that. The Lord gave me this vision of a Santa Claus list where it has one size, all naughty and then a nice, but instead of it being naughty and nice and who's on that list, and it was all of my sins and I could read [00:09:00] them and I just remember like staring off in this what would look to other people as if a day I was in a daydream and I was just feeling mortified.
About myself and the counselor had no idea what was going on. I was just looking off and the car ride home, I was just very silent. I was staying with my best friend and her family, and so they were my transportation, obviously, and I would just start repenting and just like asking Jesus to forgive me for salvation and.
So one thing that I had a hard time wrapping my mind around was how does the blood of Jesus actually cleanse us? That is a dirty substance. How does that actually cleanse us? And I could not wrap my mind around that until that moment of [00:10:00] salvation and that veil was, it came right off and I just had like this instant understanding.
So that was pretty amazing. And fast forward through. A few more years of going through like hope and healing and some other counseling sessions like the Lord did a really huge work in my heart and in my spirit, and even in my mind, like just completely renewed me and healed me. There is one Wednesday night I went to a church service where I was attending at that time.
Happened to be at the back of the subdivision where I grew up and my dad still lived. In our childhood home at that time and on the way to church that Wednesday night, the Lord convicted me and told me three times, forgive your father. Mm-hmm. And I said, no, I am not. And after that third time I said, fine Lord.
I will forgive him [00:11:00] if I drive by his house. I see the lights are on and he is up and awake. So after service, I drove by and I pulled in front of the house, and of course all the lights are on, doors are open, windows are open. He is watching tv. So I'm like, Ugh. So I arrived unannounced. And he let me in and we chatted and I had no idea why I was there.
And finally I get up to excuse myself so I can travel home. It was a 45 minute ride to where I was living 'cause I had since moved in with another family member. And as I'm walking out the door. I literally have my body half in and half out of the door. And I turned and I said, I forgive you. And I was walking out that door and he says, hold on a minute.
You get back in here there bubble. [00:12:00] And he says, what is this a 12 step program you're going through? So I came back and I sat back down and I just told him I could give you everything that has ever happened in my childhood, everything that you've ever done, and all the, I went on and he is like it created
this special moment where he opened up and started talking about his childhood and the trauma and different things that he experienced, and he was still very unrepentant. Still is to this day, still denies everything that has. Ever taken place mostly 'cause he is protecting himself and from being vulnerable and having to actually repent.
But it created this beautiful moment that had I disobeyed God, my dad to this day would [00:13:00] not be open. To hearing about Jesus. He doesn't always wanna hear it from me, but he'll ask me questions. He'll ask me questions, and he'll ask Dave questions and Dave has his. Unique way of being able to create this bond with my dad, where my dad's more open to speak with him versus me.
And that's okay. Yeah. Uh, because he's still gonna get the gospel. Totally. So I'm glad that he's open and he's been. Open for 15 years now, and now he is just starting to do a Bible study with a friend. So God will use anybody and it doesn't have to be me. I planted, I watered seeds, but God gives an increase and he'll use anybody and I just pray, Lord.
I don't care who it is, I just pray for his salvation. Mm-hmm. And he's, really into the chosen. And the chosen brings the word to life in a way that ma most people [00:14:00] haven't even thought of before. And so the chosen has been really powerful and getting him closer and closer to taking that final step and like, yes, Lord, I'm yours.
So it's been really exciting to see over the last eight years to see, her dad really grow in that way. And, get closer and closer. He's in a crockpot right now. Yes. And a few more hours he'll be ready. Wow. I've talked about the chosen on the show before and some of the guests, and I don't necessarily like some of the liberties they take with some of it, who am I?
If the show is getting people to get in the Bible? Mm-hmm. To come to church or to start asking questions. Or renew their relationship with Jesus. So I just let God do what God does, right? Yes. And I think that's a healthy place to be, is that you don't have to think that they're getting everything perfect or doing it right.
I, and you know, there are times that we've looked at each [00:15:00] other like, maybe they could have done it differently, but like you said, it is getting people excited about the word and prayerfully people are not forming their entire doctrine and faith based on a TV show, but at least getting their appetite wet for more of the living word.
Yes. Awesome. I really just love your story, Bobby, and that you are obedient to what God had called you to do, even though it maybe you were a little afraid to approach your father, but it looks like God's blessing you in that way, and even the healing from the trauma that you've gone through, that's a journey too.
Now, how did you meet Dave? I was previously engaged and after that engagement broke off, I was like, Lord, like it's just you and me. And some of that was just a couple years of healing and being able to move on from that previous engagement. [00:16:00] 'cause it was a long-term relationship. We were together for over five years, so.
I've been told by a counselor in the past that when you have something happen, you count how many years you've experienced that, divide it in half, and that's about how long it takes to like be able to move on from that, to heal from that. And it was probably about that halfway mark that I really felt like I was ready to move on and I.
The Lord was blessing me to move on and to be open to dating again. And there's a few people who presented themselves, and Christians and non-Christians and the non-Christians. I was like, well, you're gonna be wasting your time and you're gonna be wasting my time. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But. Even the Christians who presented themselves, they weren't, they still weren't the right ones that God wanted for me.[00:17:00]
And I am grateful because the Lord really showed me to be more discerning. So fast forward, I one day was like, I've always been against. Online dating, meeting people through dating websites and stuff. But I was like done. I was tired of being single and crying my eyes out in my pillow every night and I said, Lord, I don't care I doing this.
So I signed up for Christian Mingle that night, and the next day I met a friend of Dave's and we got together and. We kinda. Tested things out for a couple of months and it wasn't a right fit to. But during that time I met Dave. He was actually dating somebody else that he had met, ChristianMingle. And actually I met her on Plenty of Fish.
[00:18:00] Oh, sorry. Free site. Well, you were on Christian Mingle though, so the free version. I paid. Alright anyway, so we would all hang out as a group of friends and his relationship ended. My relationship ended with his friend and. Fast forward about three, four months. It's December, and the guy I was dating, he was having a Mark Schultz concert at his church and he needed help and I was like, you need some help.
So I'm like, I volunteered to help as concert because he really. Volunteers. And so it was when we were there that Dave in showed interest in me and inquired like, so what is going on between the two of you? And he gave his blessing for Dave to make his move. And whoa, Dave and I [00:19:00] was, he friended me on Facebook along with some other people I met at the church that night.
So I was like, okay, whatever. It's just people that I've met. Friending me on Facebook. But then we would start chatting on Messenger for hours on end, and he would try flirting with me. And I was like, Dave, stop. You're like, you're flirting with me. Stop. And I would use his cheesy line, be like, Hey, I can't help it.
I'm a Libra, I'm a hopeless romantic. What would you say, Dave? Give us one of your best lines here. I would just say she had a nice smile, just simple, flirty stuff, trying to make her laugh through Facebook Messenger. Yeah. I don't really even remember any of my deadlines. I honestly don't remember either.
But fast forward, come March, he asks me to go to a concert. Oh, he is asking me out on a date, and I wasn't for that. And so I assume like a bunch of your guy friends are going and he is like, well, actually mm-hmm. [00:20:00] It's just one friend of mine, my sister, and I'm asking you, and I was like, crap. So I agreed to go and it was so awkward.
How do I connect with these people? His sister ended up not going, so it was just me and his friend that he had started to improv the group with. And finally after the concert, his friend started talking about. Moody Radio, moody Church here in Chicago. Okay, here's a point of connection. Here's something to strike up a conversation.
And so we started to converse about that and Dave was freaking out thinking, oh no, they're connecting, but we really weren't connecting like that. So he walks me to the train after I protested. 'cause the train was literally right across the street. I could walk myself and. It is Chicago is late at night.
At night, [00:21:00] and you're not letting her walk by herself to the train. Mm-hmm. No. I've been to Chicago, but I'm not afraid of the city. So I've had plenty of experiences on my own and as a young kid in the city in some rough neighborhoods. So I am pretty confident. But anyway, I let him walk me to the train, and I have this anxiety about making sure I'm on the trains right away.
And so I'm not missing my trains. So I get on this train and he's literally like, what? No hug. All right. So for context, I walked her all the way to the platform of the train. We're talking, and as soon as the doors opened, like literally as soon as they came apart, she was gone. No. So the lamest of lame ploys, I'm like.
What, no hug. So she came back out, gave me the side bro hug, and then came back to the train. And here I am leaving this date thinking like, [00:22:00] man, I am in the friend zone. And then know what the friend zone is. So the next day we are talking on the phone and we're talking about this. Concert and what happened, and so to give some back info, the movie Courageous, if everyone has seen that at the end, they're doing the Father's Day speech and they're listing off all the I will declarations that they will do as fathers and men of the home and husbands.
When that movie came out and I saw it, I was like, okay, Lord, whoever I marry really has to follow all of those declarations. And so we're on the phone discussing this date and at the, towards the end of the conversation, he starts saying all of these declarations. And he had never seen the movie. And so it was like literally God [00:23:00] was slapping me upside the head and I literally was on my couch like.
Oh my. This is my husband. Well, okay Lord. So then it went from there. We dated for seven months, got engaged and got married seven months after our engagement. And now here we are eight years later. I propose at the end of church service. Yes, I had coordinated with, our pastor and I asked him to say, set it up as like a testimony stay.
'Cause it was two weeks before Thanksgiving, set it up as like, do you have any Thanksgiving testimonies? So a couple people shared and then when I realized that nobody was gonna go after, go next, I, that's when I started my testimony and then stood up to the platform and proposed and I was like, wow.
Yeah, so, but it's funny though, because he stood up in his seat, well, not on his seat, from his seat, [00:24:00] and started to talk to the congregation, introducing himself and stuff. Okay. But then when he moved up to the front of the church, oh my gosh, Dave, this is not one of your comedy shows. You don't have to stand in front of everybody.
You had no clue, huh? Yeah. And so one of the men in the church, he kind of thought it was funny too, and he is like, well, what is this? Like some kind of proposal happening. And as soon as he said that, I started backing up. 'cause I'm on the platform as part of the worship team. I interpreted. The worship in ASL.
So I literally was backing up to the wall as far as I could go, and he starts his proposal and you hear the gasps and stuff, and I'm like, oh my goodness, because I'm not. Usually comfortable being center of attention and all [00:25:00] eyes were on me and I was no pressure freaking out.
Were you happy that he proposed? Yes. And he will tell everybody that when he. I asked, will you marry me? That I never said yes, but I did several times with my head buried into his shoulder and in his ears. But what is true, I did not give her the ring. She snatched it out of the box. I did.
But this is what is really cool. And so God ordained is the ring that he proposed with is his mom's ring. But it also happens to be the same exact ring that I used to look at in the old Sears and service merchandise catalogs when I was a kid. When I was a kid. Mm-hmm. So it was a sign that, yes, this really is of God and this, it really is your [00:26:00] husband.
I've never heard that before. That is, yeah. That is something else. Yes. Wow. Years later, and I don't remember. You don't have any children, right? Not yet. Not yet. Not yet. Okay. We're working on it. Not right now though. Yeah. That'll drive up the ratings,
the tmmi ratings,
because it's been a few years. I didn't wanna assume, but sorry. No, we just go with it here. Yeah. And yeah, I can't make this stuff up. Right, right.
Now you were doing the comedy, the improv, like part-time, right? And you were pastoring, weren't you, Dave? We were co children's pastors and have been together basically since we got married. And so that was, that's part-time unpaid volunteer here. [00:27:00] 'cause we've been at small churches. Mm-hmm. And building up rewards in heaven.
Yes. Yeah. The economy was part-time and we get paid every once in a while, but it was never an income generator. So I've had a few different jobs that paid the bills, but what's different now is in October of 22, I got laid off and the Lord showed us through several circumstances that it was time to get into full-time ministry.
And so this September we went through missions training and we are now a US missionary candidate. And we'll be doing what I've been doing in salt and light full time, which is working with survivors of trauma, using comedy and improv to unlock their creativity and their communication skills and remind them that it's okay to laugh, it's okay to, mm-hmm.
Let your guard down and find joy in life. Yeah. So we've been working with specifically trafficking survivors, and the need is [00:28:00] they need to know that. There's hope for them and there is a future for them, and that their hope is in Jesus and that their future is in Jesus as well. So through the comedy, what we do is like the improv workshops with them, and through that we're able to break down the walls in their hearts and turn stone hearts into hearts of clay, and we're able to share the love of Jesus with them.
And what's really awesome and was the unwritten benefit and the unwritten aspect is that I, I am a man coming in with these women who survived being abused and just put through literal hell on earth by men. So they're getting a chance to see that, number one, there are. Healthy men that you can trust.
Mm-hmm. And also because we're married, Bobby's been able to come to a few of the workshops now, and they're [00:29:00] able to see that there is a possibility of a healthy marriage. And we get to model those things while we're also having fun and seeing God really break down a lot of walls. You lost your job in 2020.
I lost my job in 2022 also. It's just amazing how God moves us in a different direction and it's definitely changed my life. And you might remember from our first conversation, Dave, that I was a missionary for 13 years Baptist ary as a church planter. Now that process of becoming a church planter, it's probably different than the process that you're going through to become missionaries, or you just went through candidate school and what does that look like?
So it started in January with the application very in depth, had to find 10 references, which to me was like they're serious because especially for guys, we don't have that many close people. We're [00:30:00] just like, we have, Jesus had like really three close people. Mm-hmm. Then he had the 12 disciples, but he had three.
And it's like, how am I supposed to have three times as many friends as Jesus, but we got the re re it calling people. Right? And this is Dave, um, Dave Ebert? Yeah. Yeah. The comedian. Oh no. Yeah, that, that's me. And so it was kind like trying to find a groomsman for the wedding. Calling up people from third grade, Hey, uh, what are you doing this weekend?
What's your dad doing this? I heard from him for 10 years. Right. And usually when you hear somebody out of the blue after 10 years and they talk really friendly, usually they're trying to get you in some MLM. Right, right. Hey, hey, you wanna buy my tell you about what I'm doing? Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
doTERRA unto others as you would have doTERRA unto you. But, so there's application [00:31:00] process and there were interviews with the head of missions, then interviews with the people who would be over my specific department. Several testing a lot of forms that fill out Yeah. Psych tests. Psych tests, psych tests, and then, yeah.
Yeah. Make sure that. We can at least lie well enough to, no, I'm kidding. No, to make sure that we're ready because Yeah. When you walk out into full-time ministry, especially with missions where you're responsible for your own fundraising and support raising. It takes a toll and you have to be healthy.
You have to be in a good position also. You have to be in a place where you're not like escaping the world to say, oh, I'm just gonna be a missionary and get away from stuff. Mm-hmm. So they do a very good job of vetting and making sure that you're healthy and ready. Yes. And then the candidate school, the orientation was six, 10 hour days of.
Learning about fundraising, about how to, honor the [00:32:00] gifts that people give, and also the different rules and regulations that we have to follow because we are accountable to our home church, to our home district as well as to the national assemblies. So a lot of training, a lot of prep, a lot of numbers.
And now we're hitting the road calling every pastor we know. The churches that we visited for fundraising with the comedy team, we're connecting with them and just asking them for support. Because what we're gonna do is we're serving organizations that don't have a budget to hire an improv coach. So we wanna go and serve them free of charge and just rely on the body of Christ to make sure that our cats don't go homeless.
The goal is to also eventually open our own facility. Wow. So like a home, like a residential home? Yeah, like a residential facility for survivors, men, women and children. And to offer [00:33:00] them a comprehensive therapy as well as job training skills and things to get them on their feet so that once they're on the, in this place where they're ready to start over.
If they're ready to start over and start building a life, instead of many trafficking victims when they come out of trafficking, unless they have an organization that walks in hand in hand, they either fall back into drugs, they fall back into that lifestyle again. Or worse, they fall into depression and impossible suicide because.
They end up escaping, but they have a record. Yeah, because they're, they've probably been picked up by the police several times. They've also probably got a drug record because either the people that they were quote unquote working for or by their own desire to survive, they. End up on drugs, just trying to cope.
Mm-hmm. In many cases, and courts really don't care why you're being arrested for being intoxicated or on drugs. [00:34:00] They just know that you are. And so that makes their lives really hard once they escape, because who's gonna help them? They've got a rap sheet, they've probably got no place decent to stay.
Mm-hmm. They might have kids that are now in the system, so they have a lot stacked against them when they get out. We want to be another or be an organization that gives them all the tools they need to not only escape and survive, but to actually start to thrive. Mm-hmm. They can leave their past behind and it will be just a beautiful testimony to share of God's goodness that no matter what you're going through, God can redeem it and heal it.
And, we wanna do our own facility here in Illinois and we also wanna reproduce what we're doing because. We believe it's valuable and it's unique, and it helps kind of fill in some of the gaps that traditional therapy might leave. Mm-hmm. Because a lot of the times these survivors have felt betrayed or felt like they can't trust people, [00:35:00] and so traditional therapy doesn't always work.
It doesn't always help them free themselves from their past. Yeah. So when comedy is entered into the picture. We can kind of till that soil a little bit so that now therapy is a little bit easier because now the, some of the calluses and the walls are torn down. Yeah. So then you open doors for other types of healing methods once you get through that big block wall.
Right. It's been amazing 'cause we've seen women open up publicly for the first time and share their stories where. Traditional therapies may not have worked in that way, if that makes sense. They find more freedom when they start to laugh. When you laugh in a room with other people, there's like this bond that happens where you feel safe because now you have all admitted something about yourselves.
If you go to a comedy show and you hear a group of 500 strangers laughing, they're not strangers when they leave that comedy show because in the midst of that, [00:36:00] they laughed and admit they have something in common. And when you admit that you have something in common with 500 other people, now you don't feel alone.
Now you feel a little bit of safety and we've seen these women, , find that they are, feel safe enough to share their story for the first time in any kind of a public setting. And as once you shed light on your pain and shed light on what you're struggling with, it doesn't seem quite as big and as daunting and shedding light on it allows you to give it to God and let him finish the healing.
Like you say, the laughter is so powerful because it makes you feel good, and then the laughter makes you feel better because all those endorphins and the serotonin levels are. Where they're supposed to be. And you look on the world in a different perspective. It's crazy. Like I, 10 minutes ago I was depressed and now I think I'm gonna make it.
And here's something I like to talk about is. When you laugh, when you have like a deep [00:37:00] laugh and you're like truly just enjoying the moment, you naturally lift your head up and automatically your eyes are lifting up. Mm-hmm. It's almost like it's a form of worship when you have a good laugh. Wow. Because you're looking up to where your help comes from.
Wow. And. It's just a beautiful sign because when you're laughing you just, you're letting this energy go, whether it's stress or it's just, you're even fatigue. When you let it go, suddenly your shoulders lift up. Suddenly your blood pressure drops and you're reminded that there's more than what's here right in front of you.
You lift your eyes up and you realize there's so much more, and that's just a beautiful thing to see. Let's also think about it. God is our father, and what good father doesn't take joy in laughing with his kids. And when you see a healthy father and child relationship, they have moments of giggles and cackles and tickle fights.
So [00:38:00] what Good father him doesn't take joy in laughing and enjoying the presence of his kids. So I think that when we laugh. In those moments of where it's pure and it's just joy. He laughs with us. And I think that those, like I said, are moments of worship in a way because we're reminded of his goodness.
Yes. God give us a gift. I think that. People outside the Christian community, they, they view us as fuddy daddies and stuffed shirts and that we don't ever have any fun. And we're serious all the time and we're about reading our Bibles and praying all the time and that we don't have any fun. But I like your perspective.
Of showing the world that it is a gift from God. And we do have fun. And like I said earlier, talking about Jesus and the 12 disciples, you get a group of guys together that they're gonna goof off, they're gonna laugh. And the adoration that the disciples have for Jesus less Judas is [00:39:00] scar, the adoration.
That does not happen when it's just a militant leader saying, thou shalt, there has to be moments of levity, moments of bonding, and pure joy. That's more than just. A rabbi teaching his students the love that they had, the love that they felt for him to be willing to die for him for his name. That doesn't happen in a military setting that happens in relationship where there's moments of levity and laughter, and I can't wait to eventually be and be in heaven and hear Jesus tell some jokes.
That'd be amazing. Like why did you really call them Sons of Thunder? Right. Probably farting around the campfire. Ah, yes, exactly. Jesus. Pull my finger.
Some people have like checked out at this point.
Oh [00:40:00] man. Love it. I'm so glad you're gonna create a center as a goal in the future after the show, I definitely wanna give you some folks to connect with that. I know I've got a lot of connections, but we have the Dream Center here in Phoenix. Okay. And I've gone to a few of their fundraisers and they're an incredible place.
They have this center for trafficked women and. And men, and we're very close to Mexico, so we get a lot of trafficked people here in Phoenix. And there'd be somebody to connect with for sure. 'cause they could show you how to create the facility and what not to do, and what to do and what they've learned.
They create like apartments for these girls. They're like designer rooms. They're not just like bunks and dorms and stuff. I've seen these rooms. They're incredible. They treat the girls like they're princesses. It's really. Wonderful. And they do teach the skills of how not to go back on the streets and finding your worth in Jesus and your [00:41:00] value.
You're not just a piece of meat to be used, you are a daughter of the king. And so yeah, I'll definitely give you their contact information. Do you know Mark Sowersby? Oh yeah. Mark. He's, he's been, uh, on my podcast before. He's a survivor. Yeah. Big time. So. I know that we talked about a lot of different things.
Was there anything that we didn't cover today that you wanted to share with the audience?
Yeah. So if the Lord is leading you and you feel like, feel like the Lord's saying, support this ministry and uh, give us the opportunity and the tools to go out and reach more survivors of trafficking.
'cause we're working in Chicago right now. And there, there's a plenty of harvest there, but there's also other places that we want to serve as well. Yes. You can go to, partners.gifts fork glory.com and that'll take you right to the, ag website where our, page is. And you can log in and, or you can sign in as a donor.
And if you can do one time gift, [00:42:00] if you can do a monthly gift, or if you wanna do the faith promise, which is just your promise between you and the Lord of what you're. Willing to commit to support us. Anything is gonna help us get there. The website is partners.gifts for glory.com and whatever the Lord puts on your heart is gonna be, well appreciated and is gonna be used to serve many survivors.
And you know, part of what we're doing is also doing podcasts. 'cause we wanna raise awareness that this is an issue. Mm-hmm. And we are hoping that between working with survivors. Doing advocacy by going, on podcasts or media that eventually we'll work ourselves out of a job and that there will be no more trafficking, there'll be no more slavery.
That would be the biggest blessing of all is if we could work hard enough and the Lord would move enough that we would see an end to it. Mm, amen. Yeah. Even if you don't have the money right now to support. Dave and Bobby, you can definitely share this episode. Tell your friends [00:43:00] about the ministry. I definitely have that in the show notes, and we're gonna share the podcast episode like crazy and anything else you wanted to share.
If you're listening or watching, be sure to subscribe to the wounds of the Faithful. Check every episode out and I'll go back and see how much I've changed in the last two years since the first time I was on. Yeah, I'm gonna put the episode of Dave's testimony, his story in the show notes, so you guys can just click on that and listen to that.
This was great. Had a lot of fun and laughter and learn some things, and you guys are always welcome to come back on the show and give us an update. Absolutely. To see how you're doing and when you open your center up in the future someday. Then I'm gonna come and cut the ribbon. Absolutely. I've been in Chicago a few times.
It's a nice city, so God bless you guys, and we wish you the very best. Thank you so much for having [00:44:00] us. Yes, Diana, thank you so much for having us. We love you and we love the show. Love you guys too. Thank you for listening to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast. If this episode has been helpful to you, please hit the subscribe button and tell a friend you could connect with us at DSW Ministries dot org.
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